053 | Maximize Your Workforce: Shauna Wekherlien’s Guide to Strategic Outsourcing

  Could outsourcing talent globally be the missing key to scaling your business without compromising on quality? Welcome back to the vital strategies podcast. I’m your host, Patrick Lonergan, and today we’re welcoming back Shauna Weckerling, the founder of Talent Gnome. Shauna is a true expert in helping businesses expand their talent pool by leveraging global talent.

And today she’s sharing her latest insights into the world of virtual work and outsourcing. Whether you’re new to outsourcing or looking to fine tune your approach, Shauna’s advice on utilizing global talent will expand your thinking about how to build a championship team. Let’s dive in. Shauna, thank you for joining us here today.

I am super excited about this conversation. Uh, we’re going to be talking about, uh, hiring And, uh, so I’m, I’m excited. You’re here, the founder of Talent Gnome, uh, which is. Um, and I’m, I’m really interested in just, I have so many questions about how, how to hire, it seems like it’s a black box to me. Like I have friends and clients that are, that are doing this and it seems somewhat scary to me now.

I rewind seven years and I took a scary step and we hired. Uh, our first virtual assistant, you know, when technology was just coming around to, to make that super easy with things like DocuSign and whatnot. And so, uh, I think, uh, this, this is sort of the next evolution of that. And in my mind, it’s like, let’s, let’s find the best talent.

Uh, I remember reading a book by Thomas Friedman called the world is flat a number of years ago. And he talked about. How, uh, like global, global crossing, putting all this like high speed fiber across the ocean was going to, uh, sort of democratize talent. You know, there’s some super sharp people in, in India and, you know, all across Asia that, uh, you know, we, we now have access to for, for very low cost because the Internet’s connected to solve.

So. Thank you for joining us here today. Aw, thank you so much for having me. This has to be one of my favorite subjects because it is so valuable, and I love the fact that you’re bringing up, you know, seven years ago it was kind of unheard of. Uh, yeah, there there’s, there’s been a lot of progress in the past, little, little bit of time.

So, uh, COVID of course put a huge push on the progress from that because so many businesses were used to being the brick and mortar and were forced. To go digital in so many ways. So, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s really kind of coming to the forefront now. So I love it. Wonderful. All right. So I’m, I’m just, if it’s okay, I’m just going to start asking some questions that I have and then, uh, you know, we’ll, we’ll get to the bottom of some of these things.

So the first thing I think about when we, we are talking about hiring somebody overseas is like, what are we going to do about the communication, like the language barrier? Like oftentimes that seems like it’s, uh, an issue now I’ve done a fair amount of traveling and. I’m generally surprised by the, the number of people that speak English all over the world, which is awfully nice.

But, uh, yeah, how about the, the communication, uh, barrier, how do, how do we overcome that? Absolutely. So the one thing that I love about the internet is that it can translate for you. Okay. Now I do think that there’s a big question here is to, if I back up just a step, what is it that you really want to hire for?

Okay. So if we take, for example, customer service. You really don’t want to have a customer service rep picking up the phone who’s in a different country who can’t speak English. I mean, we’ve all heard this complaint, right? I can’t even understand the person on the phone. You need somebody who’s got a very high, if not fluency, level of English from that standpoint.

But if you’re talking about a software programmer, You just need to make sure that the two of you can communicate, right? Like, I mean, code is code. If you’re writing in Python, Python’s Python, right? As long as it’s written, you’re good. So depending on what job you’re looking for and what level of communication you need, that’s always kind of the starting point for me.

If we’re talking about the pure fact of speaking English well, you can actually put that in job ads. And one of the things that I have to say that I love about helping people hire overseas, uh, good or bad, and I hope I’m not bringing up any politics here, but in the States, people get very touchy, very quickly.

You can’t ask me that you can’t require that of me. You can’t force me to have X, Y, Z qualifications. Um, if I’m hiring globally, I can ask for anything I want. I mean, legal, above board, all the good things, right? Of course, but anything that I’m looking for. So if I need fluency, if I need a PhD, if I need eight years of experience, if I, whatever it is, I can ask for those things.

And because my talent pool has gone from five people in my local city in the middle of nowhere out to 5, 000 people across the globe, I am much more likely to find what I want, the way I want it, the. Intonation, pitch, whatever of the speaking skills from that standpoint, written skills, also a big piece here.

Uh, we’ve had cases and, and I’m going to admit that I’m actually a, a, a written failure here. Okay. Uh, so I’m actually originally Canadian. And when I moved from Canada to the States, I used to spell words the Canadian way, which is the British way, color, theater, all those lovely words. I remember getting negative marks in school because I was misspelling the word.

Okay, so if you’re looking for written, like content writers, You need to make sure, well, is this British English, American English? What kind of slang, what are we looking for? So you’ve got that side of communication. Go, go ahead. I don’t want, I guess there’s another side of communication here too. So yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, no. Cause I’m, I’m almost thinking like, you know, merging a few technologies together. Right. Like we’re, we’re talking about outsourcing and now I’m also thinking about chat, GPT and, or AI in general. And it’s like, if somebody writes in. You know, British English, you know, chat, right. Can convert it for me or convert it for them in seconds.

Right. Uh, and have, um, and even, you know, I I’ve found I’ll upload the transcripts from our podcast. And so it knows my voice. And so we can take content, somebody else writes and then have it talk in my voice, you know, quote unquote. And, uh, I love that. So, uh, I could see some of these tools coming together in a pretty, pretty fantastic way.

Okay. No, not at all. I think you just hit on the second piece of it, which is there’s the human level. What does the specific person have already have? What do I need them to have? There’s also the technology level, because often when people ask me about communication, the Deeper concern is, listen, how do I get across my point?

How do I make sure that the project I give them, what I’m saying that I want is understood and that the work, you know, the feedback loop, how do I know that what I’ve said is what they actually understood is the work that I’m going to get back? And so you will lose stuff in translation that way, right?

Just pure and simple. Google’s translating words, not intention, right? And so you, as the person hiring, need to get a little more clear on how you’re saying things. So it’s a learning lesson for you. It’s also something we’re having those technological systems in place. So things like using Slack, um, using Skype for chats, right?

Some sort of chat system where you can track the history and you can help train your people on when I say this, this is what I mean. Um, not using euphemisms. Right. We may say you look like a death warmed over and your staff may look at you and go, I’m sorry, what? What do you mean? What is that? You’re dead?

Like, you know, so learning that different cultures also have different meanings to words, you know, so there’s quite a lot when we talk about communication, cultural, technological, the person themselves, how long historically have they worked with an already either American company, British company, Australian company, right?

If they’ve never done freelancing, Yeah. For an American company from that standpoint, you may want to think twice, right? You may have to train out some bad habits, train in some new ones. So, you know, how much cost, how much are you willing to pay for an increased level of already has the knowledge that you want is another question.

Yeah. Yeah, that’s great. And one thing you said that I, I consistently find myself doing a poor job of and would be important here is I have an outcome in my mind, but I don’t clearly communicate what that outcome looks like the, the, you know, here’s, here’s all of the, the measurables and the benchmarks that we need to, to accomplish this, this outcome.

And, uh, so I think that’s an important piece, like as the. Somebody that’s, uh, delegating the work, uh, not only being very clear on what the outcomes are. And I think you, you mentioned this in Slack, like maybe there’s. Check ins along the way, like, Hey, when you feel like you’re 25 percent done, or when you get to this point, check in with me and see how it’s going.

So we can, you know, make sure that we’re on the right path. Cause what I don’t want you to have to do is like, you know, you’re 90 percent way down the road, right. And it’s the wrong direction. You know, we’re, we’re missing the mark because I didn’t. Clearly communicate. So yes, we’ve, we’ve learned that feedback loops are probably one of the most important things you can use.

Right. And that will teach you how to become more clear. So here’s what I, here’s what I said. What did you hear me say? And at first that could be a little off putting like that’s, that’s almost a cultural thing. So I’ll give you a great example with the Filipino culture and the Indian culture. If you ask somebody, so what did I say?

Please repeat it back to me. It’s almost as if you’re calling them stupid. You’re not smart enough to understand what I said. So I need you to repeat it back. And so if you don’t know some of these cultural bits, you can actually find yourself, you thought you had a staff and then they quit because they thought you were right.

So getting those kinds of expectations laid out at the very beginning of a relationship with a brand new team member that, you know, Hey, I want to make sure we’re on the same page. This is how I know how to do it. Is that okay with you? You know, it’s not going to cause offense. It’s not going to cause any problems.

Kind of setting those groundwork expectations for the relationship itself can be super handy. Yeah, absolutely. That’s, that’s great. And then I think that the next thing I start to think about is, and I’ve seen this and I think you’ve already prefaced this issue is when I think of the work offshore, I think of lower quality work.

Uh, but you already mentioned in the job description, Putting PhD, right. And we’ve seen, uh, we’ve got a client that, uh, has shown up to meetings and he’s got some, um, Pakistani teammates that show up to the meetings and they, they roll with the finance stuff and they’re, they’re not behind by any stretch of the imagination.

And I was like, wow, this is pretty cool, uh, that they are up to speed and can. You know, understand all of the discussion that we’re having without any trouble whatsoever. So, yeah, I don’t know. Can you talk a little bit about, uh, maybe I feel like in general, there’s some misnomers about, you know, the quality of work overseas that, uh, that you could get here in the States, but, uh, you know, I’m seeing some evidence that that’s, uh, that’s not necessarily 100%.

So, you know, again, a lot of it comes down to clarity. Right? What level of person do I think I need for this job? Right? Do I need a PhD? Can I get away with an MBA? Do I need what, what often in India is called a fresher, right? So somebody straight out of college, they have no experience, right? They’re brand new at this kind of thing, right?

Along with all of those different levels and knowledge and experience, how many years have they worked in your industry or again, for an American company or an Australian company, something like that. So pretty much anything you want, you can find, but I’ll be honest with you. It’s very similar to the U S market from that standpoint.

Everybody. Wants to hire the PhD with 25 years of experience for 8 an hour. Right. Good luck. Right. So you do have to be looking at, well, what, what do I actually need? Right. How many? Cause there’s, you know, there’s a pyramid, right? There’s 5, 000 freshers and there’s three PhDs and the whole thing. And how much money are you willing to spend?

Spend to get that person, because no matter what, I mean, what we’ve seen on average, of course, depending on job roles and everything else, hiring overseas versus hiring in the States for the same job roles, same experience, same knowledge, often working for the same companies, same background, literally same, everything, uh, overseas rates are typically 20%.

Of whatever the overseas rates are, right, of the U. S. rates. So, you know. So, not 20 percent less, but 20 percent of. So, yeah, 80 percent less from that standpoint. And so, you know, for example, if you’re looking for a programmer, we just hired one for somebody. If you’re looking for a programmer, 15 years of experience in Python, right, 20 an hour.

In the States, that’s like 120 an hour, right? It’s just not even comparable. And so what I do, you kind of mentioned this misnomer, right? A lot of people that we run into are still talking about, Oh, it’s so cheap to go overseas. It is. It absolutely is. But not if you’re expecting to get that 15 year programmer for 8 an hour, right?

That the prices have increased. Everybody is going overseas. If you’re not, you’re now behind right from that standpoint. And a lot of it is you just can’t find who you want. The market has been so captured in the U S you can’t find it here. So, um, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I love it. So this is also something that you, you mentioned that, uh, I’m, I’m We’ve got our team all over the United States.

We’ve hired people in lots of different States. And I find from state to state, the, uh, the compliance, the regulation, you know, the tax filing, all those other things are, are different Pennsylvania. You know, there’s state tax filing. There’s county tax filing or city tax filing. It’s like, Oh my gosh, like this, this, this is a pain in the neck.

So. I assume there’s some sort of, you know, legal and compliance measures that we have to be paying attention to when we hire. Offshore, how do we, how do we go about navigating those things? You know, honestly, I think this is one of the biggest concerns. And to be honest, one of the easiest answers, right?

Because we’re all, especially here in the States, we are so concerned. If I do something wrong, the government’s going to get me, right? I mean, it’s, it’s an automatic, like we’ve been well trained by our government here. Okay. Um, there’s generally and One form that you need to have signed on behalf of the IRS anyway, right?

To make sure that you’re legal above board. It’s called a W 8 B E N. W8BEN. So unless you have a physical company overseas, typically the foreign governments will not let you hire somebody overseas as a W 2, what we would consider a W 2 employee. So almost everyone you hire is going to be what we would call a 1099 contractor.

Now, with that being said, the W eight B E N is the form that your contractor fills out to tell the U S government why you should or should not do tax withholding for the amount of money that you pay that contractor. A lot of it has to do with, is that contractor eligible, even eligible to work physically within the U S do they have a social security number?

Do they have any ties to the U S? You know, the U S is always looking for, how am I going to get my cut of whatever money? So from an IRS regulation standpoint, one form now, of course, depending on what the answers are, maybe it is one form, maybe it’s more forms, right? Depends on what the answers are. From a legal standpoint.

Now we start to get into, okay, well, listen, you are a U S company. You’re hiring overseas. You have maybe a legal contract in place, right? Non compete, uh, non, uh, solicitation. You know, you may have these contracts. How do you plan to enforce? Those contracts on somebody overseas, Okay, And, so This is where the technological side of hiring somebody overseas really comes in, What kind of work is that person doing for you?

So let’s go back to our programmer here. Okay. If you hired somebody as a programmer and they’ve written all this code for you, Do you own the code or do they own the code? Where’s the code stored? Who’s got access to the code? If they decide to delete the code, do you have a backup copy of the code? So we start getting in all of these technological pieces.

When you look at something, let’s take, for example, an administrative assistant. Okay. Many people will hire an overseas, a VA, an executive assistant, whatever it is. Does that person get access to your bank account? What happens if they go in and steal 50, 000 out of your bank account? How do you, I mean, they’re just gone.

Poof. Okay. In India somewhere, like, how are you going to find? Um, now, certain countries are better than other countries as far as security for foreign employers. I’m going to call us employers here, okay? For example, India. If you are hiring a financial professional in India, so a tax preparer, a bookkeeper, a CFO, a data analyst, something like that, something in the financial realm, India as a country actually has a blacklist program.

So if that financial professional says, Steals from you and you have proof and here’s the deal. And you got to go through courts. I mean, it’s like a thing, but you can actually blacklist that professional from ever working ever again in the entire country of India. And for a lot of people overseas to have a job with a U S company that is stable pays in us currency.

Uh, you know, they get to work with American clients. That’s a big resume builder for a lot of them. They’re not going to mess around with it. Right. It’s not worth it to them. Yep. So looking. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. I was going to say, I think there’s. There’s some good controls just in general. Like I’ve unfortunately seen, uh, people in finance positions, right.

In the U S you know, that have check writing ability that can move money around. Um, no, I just almost think that shouldn’t, you should almost avoid that scenario. You know, you should be on everything. You need double checks just because, I mean, we’ve all had this happen, right? Somebody, you trust somebody to do a job.

They don’t do a job. Mm hmm. The only reason that you go after them is because they’re sitting in the office next to you. How are you going to do that when somebody isn’t, whether they’re in Colorado or India, it doesn’t matter. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. No, that’s, that’s, that’s really good. And, and I think technology, cause I think about a lot of the things you’re talking about and it’s like, it almost doesn’t matter if my, you know, assistance in Fresno or Bangladesh, like at the end of the day, I, I still have to be able to, you know, if they decide to no longer work with us, Shut off their access to everything really quickly.

And so, you know, I think there’s tools like. Last pass and, you know, uh, you know, just having the admin settings for all of those things where you can, you don’t give those out, you know, that, that can be a dangerous situation, but, uh, uh, you can, you know, quickly hit a few buttons and they’re disconnected from the entire system and don’t have access to files and whatnot.

And this is where you want a good tech person, internal, external, somebody you trust, somebody that’s been with you for a while, right. To help you set these things up. Cause you’re right. Um, LastPass is great. Uh, TerraMind is another one that we’re seeing really pop up right now. TerraMind can literally track every keystroke.

What did you look at? What did you open? What number did you type in? I mean, screenshots, screenshots of them, screenshots of the computer. So you can even tell we’ve had cases where somebody hired somebody and then come to find out on TerraMind that the brother was actually sitting in front of the computer doing the work.

And this guy was over here doing the job for somebody else. Like. That you do. So, um, yeah, it’s, you know, depending on what kind of softwares you’re looking at. And again, what level of security you need, um, you know, something I always tend to default to marketing if I have a video and I want somebody to edit the video.

You either did or did not edit the video, period. Like you’re not getting into my Facebook account and all my paid ad spend and all the rest of this stuff. Like, no, you’re just editing a video. So I do think also looking at the level of security and technology that you need based on the role that you need is a good thing.

So, yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s fantastic. I, um, Cause the thing that I’m having a little bit of trouble with is I, I, I just tend to lend a lot of trust, uh, until you give me a reason not to. And then I start dialing it back in. Um, so I, I guess my question is like, I, we’re very results focused, right? Like I do not really care how you’re spending your time.

I just need the results. Right. So it’s like, I don’t really feel like, you know, watching some, you know, screen capture of you working, you know, to figure out if you’re actually working. Why am I doing that? I, I assume, I assume that’s worthwhile if All of a sudden we’re not getting the results, you know, now I can go check the tape for lack of a better term and go, what’s happening.

Oh, I see that, you know, uh, you’ve got your 12 year old little brother sitting in front of the computer trying to do this work that, uh, I need you as a professional. So. And 100 percent right? I mean, and how do I want to say it? I don’t mean to put off the theory that everyone overseas is going to try to do something bad.

I mean, there are bad people in the States. There’s bad people overseas. There’s good people in the States. There’s good people overseas, right? And the way you’re describing it is what 95 percent of managers do, right? I’ve given you a task. Did you get it done? Did you get it done timely? Is it up to the quality that I want?

Yes or no. And if it isn’t, then I go check the tapes, right? Then I go see what’s going on and I restrict your work. I stop all work, right? We’re done. Um, you know, as I said, most people working overseas do not want to lose a job with an American company. America is still absolutely looked at as. Stable money.

You know, you’re going to get paid. It’s not like you’re going to do all this work and not get paid. Uh, it’s great to have on the resume, you know, so there’s a lot of really big positive pros that come out. Um, I think one of the biggest things that we hear from candidates right now who are looking to work with American companies.

One of the biggest things is they’re looking for culture. Um, good or bad, you know, in a lot of other places, the culture is very, the boss is always right. Yeah. And American culture generally is very different. You know, it’s more of a, let’s work together. Let’s figure this out. What are your ideas, your opinions?

And so we have a lot of overseas candidates that are coming in and saying, I want to work for somebody that actually respects my ideas. And I’m hearing that that’s the American market. So I’d like to work remote for an American company. Yeah, I love that because, you know, I only have a limited set of, you know, experiences and if you’ve got a different set of experiences, you might have a perspective on this problem.

We’re trying to solve. That is better than anything I can come up with. So I love it. So I think there’s a there’s a couple of questions like. How often are, um, going back to the call center, right. Uh, where, where there’s a language communication barrier. Uh, but there’s, I’ve, I’ve seen it firsthand where that’s not an issue.

You know, the, the Pakistani, um, um, outsource staff that has come into the meetings have been there. English is often better than ours. Yep. Yeah. So I guess the, how often are. Seeing are any, like, let’s say there’s somebody that’s like client facing or, you know, customer facing, you know, how much are we getting any negative feedback from, you know, the, um, the, I’ll say the client’s going, Hey, you know, what the heck’s going on here?

You know, I, um, I thought I was working with somebody in the States and I’m not, and that’s, that’s frustrating to me. Now, part of me is like, you know, uh, you’re right. Yep. Welcome to the world. And, uh, you know, let’s, let’s open up our minds a little bit, but what we tell our clients to do is listen, nobody likes a surprise.

Nobody, whether it was, you know, they thought they were working with you and now they’re working with Sarah out of Colorado, or they’re working with Mary out of Mexico. Okay. It doesn’t matter. Nobody likes a surprise period. So, uh, there are some specialties here. I’m going to just make this unload here, depending on the industry you’re in.

So for example, uh, financial professionals, uh, financial advisors, lawyers. CPAs, a lot of the professions, you actually have to get a signed release to even allow clients information to go anywhere offshore, overseas, have anyone look at it, right? So you may have to. Inform your clients. This is what we’re doing.

And this is what’s going on. Um, but for a lot of people, they, they know, they know that when they call their credit card company, they’re not talking to the states. They know that when they’re calling their cell phone company, they’re not talking to the states, you know, this, this kind of thing. And so what we found, and we have language that we provide to clients, you know, kind of this, this help with this transition when you hire your first person, right?

Um, that there’s client facing language. There’s also team team. Facing language, right? So because, you know, with the clients, Hey, this is what we’re doing. We’re doing this to manage costs as you know, and I know, and everybody knows inflation is going through the roof so we can charge you more or we can do this.

This is the path we’ve chosen, right? A lot of people don’t seem to have an issue with it. Um, the other piece that is often missed is how is my team going to react, right? We’ve had cases where, you know, the team of 10 people, and they’re just now starting to get ready to hire the first admin overseas, right?

Uh, we’ll never forget this case. The admin that was physically in the office in the U. S. Oh my god, even my dogs are getting worked up about that, right? Uh, ah! Um, you know, the admin that was physically in the office in the U. S. literally told the boss, If you hire somebody overseas, I’m quitting. Right.

Because there’s, there was a big fear of loss of work, of loss of job. She didn’t understand that the new person was here to help her, right, to do more. So, um, the internal language with your, your internal team is actually really important as well. I love that. Cause we think about everybody on the team has what we’ll call five levels of, of tasks they do.

Okay. So level five, only they can do. Level one is going to be opening the mail. Anybody can do that. Right. And so in my mind, I want people working on fours and fives. And if I can hand off the threes, twos, and ones to somebody else, so they can just be in their sweet spot, that sounds amazing to me. So this is great.

And I think you’re, you’re touching on something that I was thinking about. I’m like, okay, if I, if I do bring somebody in that’s, that’s offshore, my, for my. I think I would like to try to test this out with somebody that can help support the team, right? They’re, they’re not client facing. They’re like, all right, Hey, let’s, we’ve got some, uh, data entry work that regularly needs to happen.

So it’s like, uh, but it’s some complex financial software. So let’s, let’s, let’s find somebody that understands, you know, These pieces of the, uh, the finance world and can put the data in and, and then I almost see opportunity to help that person develop, you know, like, Hey, here’s why we’re doing this.

Here’s the strategies we’re working on, you know, and then we can bring them along in the process. And then all of a sudden. There’s a scenario where they could be client facing, right? Like, and we bring them into meetings, like, why would we not? You’re a part of the team. Yeah, absolutely. So, um, yeah, no, I think that’s, that’s great.

And then I, I, as I see that working, then it’s like, Oh, this is easier to bring somebody in at a higher level that, you know, can plug in and, uh, just. Do the work that we’re, we’re already doing, or we’ve got the training systems and processes in place to like bring them in and plug them in and, uh, you know, have a mentorship program set up to, to get them developed.

So, you know, this is a training bit too, there’s two pieces, right? One of them, listen, when you fall in love with somebody, right. They come into your office, whether they start as the lady getting the coffee, okay. Or they’re at the admin or whatever, at some point you’re in love with them. They’re doing an amazing job.

They will become office managers. That’s the path of progression. Okay. Um, so that’s going to happen. Uh, training is another big piece, right? Um, good or bad, just like you’re training somebody in the U S you have to train mostly. You have to train your overseas people. Okay. And this is where the difference between somebody coming in, there are overseas people that charge 70 an hour.

They can walk in and run your business. And you’re done. Okay. Uh, but there’s people overseas that come in at 8 an hour. You need to treat them like they’re a brand new admin. Their first, you know, first couple of weeks on the job, just like you have to train anybody else. So having at least a laid out path and a pattern of what do you want them to know and do is a good idea.

So. Absolutely. And I just think about even if they technically know how it’s done, we might have a unique spin on how we do it, how we deliver it, you know, all of those things, and they need to be trained in that. And. I can’t hire somebody in the States and hand them a laptop and just say, okay, go do it.

Right. Right. There’s going to be lots of frustration all the way around there. So, uh, we’ve just learned and continue to develop our, our training processes and workflows. So it’s like, Oh, Hey, I’m doing this thing. Uh, now I know exactly what to do. I can go look at the resource that that shows that to me.

So, yeah. All right. So this is, this is really good. Is there, is there anything that I haven’t thought about from a, you know, concern perspective that you’re seeing that I should be thinking about that, uh, you know, comes up in these, these conversations? There’s a few big ones. Uh, the one that people most often ask is, so how do I, How do I pay?

How do I pay somebody overseas? Uh, there are multiple, you know, everybody’s heard of PayPal and, you know, big, big money mover cash app. So a lot of that is pretty easy. Again, make sure you have the proper documentation from the IRS, right? Your WAPENs, that kind of thing. Um, also working out a specific, Schedule for when am I gonna get paid?

Are there any delays on payments? Right? So often we recommend that you kind of follow the general US pattern, which is you work for two weeks and then you get your first week’s paycheck. Right? So it’s a little bit delayed. That also helps you if they’re not living up to your standards or whatever reason, right?

Like, hey, we’re gonna withhold some payment for this, that, whatever. Uh, especially most overseas people are used to getting paid once every month or once every two months. So to them, this is a much faster cash flow pattern, uh, to help them and their families. Um, understanding, and if you’re, If you’re already doing this with your current staff, you’ll do it with your overseas staff, too.

Understanding what drives them. So, some people are driven by money. Some people are driven by words of praise. Some people are driven by gifts, right? So, really understanding how that person is driven. Uh, just like anybody else. Is super handy. Um, and then really looking at, well, what do you think you need as far as the project?

Like, is this, is this project work, right? Uh, programmer, we’re writing a code and we’re done. Uh, is this a part time person, a full time person? Uh, one of the things that we’ve told our owners to do, especially when this is your first hire, either as an executive to you or an administrative person for your team, have everybody on the team and whoever this person is going to support, Literally on a sticky note or a piece of paper, write out what they do in every 15 minute chunks of the day.

Am I opening that envelope or am I on the phone with our largest client closing a deal? Like what, what am I doing? Uh, because a lot of teams or owners when they first get into it, I just don’t know what to delegate. I don’t know what to give this person. Once you have that list for about two weeks, you have a real clear idea real fast on what to delegate and what to hand over.

And you get very excited. You’re like, Oh my God, I don’t have to do these 10 things. Yay! You’re thrilled to get it off your plate. Wonderful. One other thing came up. How about time zones? How does that work? Because, you know, It’s, it’s an issue. Time zones and vacation days off. Uh, almost, well, every culture on the planet has their own days off.

So let me, let me start there and then we’ll hit time zones. Uh, for example, tomorrow is Diwali. Okay. And, uh, so none of my Indian staff are working. None. Zero. Right? Everybody has the day off. Whether they have the day off or not, they will not be at work is basically the answer. Right? So, understanding foreign holiday schedules and that kind of thing, uh, tends to be a good thing.

Uh, time zones. Now, every business does this different. It absolutely depends on the job role. Okay? If you have client facing people, so for example, if you have a team of customer service reps, They need to be around when your clients are around, right? So if that’s eight to five, your local time zone. Then safe to find your local time zone, uh, be very, very clear about what those times and requirements are and that please do not apply for a job.

If you do not meet these types of requirements, uh, times and requirements, also technology, right? If they need to have their own laptop, what the speeds are, is it an I seven processor? You know, like all that kind of stuff? Um, what many companies will do with the time zones is they’ll mandate a specific overlap.

So for example, um, We’ve got a CPA client that mandates an 8 a. m. to 12 noon mandatory overlap. So every person in the entire company, I think that that 105 on staff in like 20 different countries, okay? Every single person has to work during that time period so that they can have company meetings, team meetings, whatever you need, meetings, right?

Meetings with clients because otherwise you can never find anyone. So very much depends on the needs, the job, your teams, what do you want? Those kinds of things. So, yeah, no, that’s, that’s fantastic. And then another thing I was thinking about was just, I’m thinking a little bit about the world we live in, you know, um, you know, there’s conflict going on in the middle East and Ukraine, you know, weather issues, but like, you know, we had We’ve got one of our teammates is in Tampa and hurricane just went through Tampa.

So it’s like, well, uh, that’s, that’s affecting things. Is that, is that something I should be thinking about, concerned about, or is it. Uh, in general, you know, something, I mean, I’m not quite sure what to say to that one because life is going to happen. I mean, as you said, there were typhoons in Philippines and there’s effectively a typhoon in Florida, right?

Like it doesn’t matter where you live and something’s going to happen, right? You’re going to get somebody whose father falls sick and they have to go to the hospital, you know? So in my mind, it’s very much like anyone else. Uh, What we recommend is that if you need that person and they’re really that they’ve become that integral to your business your world Okay, work with them to help them buy a generator work with them to help them buy a cell phone That is on a satellite instead of on, you know, regular cell phone towers Work with them to get them what they need so that they can get you what you need And so asking them, you know, Hey, is there a rainy season where you are?

Um, I, we find that most staff, most, most of the candidates that apply really enjoy the fact that their brand new owner, their brand new management asks them about what is your life like there and how can I help you make life easier? Um, that’s a big deal there to actually be cared about as a staff member.

So I love it. It just makes me think like even here in the U S I could send everybody a generator and a star link, uh, you know, internet connection and you’re in business wherever you’re at, like, so, uh, yeah, no, that’s, uh, that’s, that’s so good. Okay. So here’s where my brain is now. Like this all sounds amazing.

You talked about a job description. I wouldn’t even know where to publish a job description for somebody overseas. I love it. Like, maybe. I could probably dig around a little bit on the internet and like, find a few places. But like, it still feels wild west to me and I’m like, Well, how do you know you’re even posting on a real platform or not a platform?

Are you now part of the underground Ukrainian mafia? Like, what are we doing? 100%. 100%. Well, and I think this is how, I mean, side note, this is how Talent Gnome got created. Okay. Um, so, so there are absolutely fantastic platforms out there. Okay. Um, one of the ones that we suggest, if you’re just trying to kind of test the waters and you’re not sure whether you even want to go overseas yet or not, Upwork is probably one of the easiest.

Okay. They manage the payments, they manage the taxes, they manage the hours. I mean, they manage, All the things. Okay. You can see ratings. You can see their portfolio. You can see the candidates. I mean, you could talk to them through there, right? So it’s, it’s very locked down secure. Um, now, of course, from that standpoint, you’re going to pay a fee for that, right?

Okay, because there you go. Um, we find that once people get one or two hires kind of under their belts, they don’t really want to pay up work fees anymore. Okay. Cause change. Okay. Um, so that’s when you can either go start trying to recruit for yourself. Okay. Uh, LinkedIn, LinkedIn has turned into a huge hiring platform from that standpoint and I’m connected with people all over the globe.

Uh, there are specific job boards in specific countries. So especially like the Philippines is generally really good for customer service. Uh, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh are typically really good for finance, people, programming. Um, so depending like if you’re looking for a specific role, you might go on some of the job boards specific to any given country.

Uh, or you hire a recruiting service. Right, who already knows all of it, already knows where to run background checks, credit checks, sends private investigators to their homes to make sure that that is actually their home address with a picture, right, of them putting a key in the door. Uh, you know, so there’s a lot of options there, and I think a lot of it just really has to depend on how much time do you, as the owner, have to manage, create, build, do whatever it is that you’re doing, right?

Yeah. Wonderful. So, Let’s talk about how Talent Gnome works. So I’m interested in hiring somebody out there in the world, right? Like I, I, I come and I say, Shawna, here’s, here’s the job description. Okay. And so now I assume you’re going to go, okay. Um, great. We’re going to, I feel like there’s a few different ways this can go.

So why don’t you just tell me how it’s going to go instead of me, like I love it. I love it. Might be easier. I mean, unless you want to do a six hour podcast, I’d love to watch you guys. That’d be great. Uh, so yeah. So the, the step number one here is that in order to hire anybody for you, we need to know who you are, what your business does, what you’re looking for.

So yes, we’re definitely going to need a job description. Our team will actually go through your job description and say, Hey, we need to tweak this, tweak that, move this, uh, add this. We’ll give you salary ranges for the job that you’re looking for. Um, we have a kind of a giant intake form that we will ask you a million questions.

How does your team feel about this? Who are they going to be working for? Who’s their manager? Uh, what kind of clear laid out expectations do you have? You know, all of these things that you’ve asked me on today’s podcast that most business owners haven’t thought through yet. They just know they need help, right?

Cause that’s, that’s the typical call. I know I need help. I’m slammed helping, right? That’s kind of the typical call. So we start with the questionnaire, figure out who you are, what you need, where you’re going, right? What price range, make sure everybody’s happy with that. And there’s four different kind of levels of searching.

Okay. So are we looking for a full time or part time person? Are we looking for a project person? Are we looking for an executive, a c-suite? Okay. So most of this podcast we’ve been talking about like admin, customer service. Are you looking for A-C-F-O-A-C-O-O-A-C-I-O, right? Like are you looking for c-suite type level people?

Um, or do you already have a larger staff and you need to hire one of our recruiters to help your team go? Do recruiting for you, right? To kind of tack on the services recruiting. So depending on which offer you pick, whatever it is that you need for your situation, uh, then we start to look at, okay, let’s go find it.

So we’ll take that job description, start interviewing. Often we’re looking to get to gather at least 20, 30, 40 candidates. You will only see the top three to five. Right? So we’re looking to get through all of it for you and bring you with our recommendations. We really like Mary because of this, but she’s got the negative of no generator, whatever, right?

Right. Yep. And that’s exactly because when I think of Upwork, the problem with Upwork is I have to filter everybody. I have to know exactly. Is this good? Is this bad? Who am I looking at? Is this true? Yeah, I don’t know. There’s so many things I don’t know. And it’s like, um, and I’m looking at the range because I spent like 30 seconds on Upwork, you know, as I was thinking through this and I’m like, these people all look the same, but their hourly rates are so different.

And I have no clue, like, Part of me was just a fault to the expensive one because they must be better. Right. Oh, we sort of relate price to, but yes, that’s the default and that’s why they price themselves so high. You’d be amazed. Yeah. So the thought that I don’t have to like filter through that you can do the 30.

People and three to five come to me and then we make a decision from there. Sounds incredible to me. Uh, that sounds like a leveraged use of my time, which is, uh, Always trying to do what we try to do, right? You’re a busy man running a business Okay, we don’t want you spending hours and hours and hours flipping through trying to figure out is 50 62 What’s re I don’t even know what’s reasonable, right?

So Yeah, when we try to bring you three to five, right? You get to interview them you get to look at their resumes all that they’ll do testing Right. So for example, um, uh, MBTI testing, we’ll do a personality testing. We’ll do background credit, anything you need for any specific job. We will do all that.

Yeah. And then you just get your candidate. And, you know, I think one of the big questions we get here is, well, what if I pick a candidate and then three months go by and like, eh, you know, something went wrong. Uh, we offer a one candidate replacement. Right. So, cause we are also looking to find the right batch for you.

Right. We want to make you happy. So yeah. That’s incredible. Cause you know how many replacements I get when I go higher in zero and it’s hard, you know, like, uh, it’s, it’s hard. Uh, so that’s, that’s so good. Um, thinking about a few things like. How about the payment piece, you know, so am I, am I sending money directly to their PayPal account?

Yeah. Yeah. How does, yeah. Very dependent on the country. So I’ll say this right up front. Okay. So if you’re hiring in Africa, they have one system. If you’re hiring in the Asian continents, it’s different system. Right. So very dependent on which country you’re in. Uh, but the general pattern is right. You and that person, they’re going to give you their banking, either.

PayPal, uh, money transfer, cash app, like whatever the system is going to be. Um, and yeah, you’re moving money. Okay. And that’s where everybody was kind of freaked out. Like I’m moving money overseas. Is this a prop? Nope. You’re just paying a guy though. Yeah. So it’s, it’s not as hard as it comes out to sound.

You just have to know which payment systems and which ones are legal and above board. We had a, we had a client try to pay somebody through an Don’t, don’t do that. Please ask, please ask talent. Okay. We’d be happy to tell you which one’s not to use, but yeah. Good. And is there any like tax withholding requirements or is that completely on the person that you’re dependent on that?

W a B N. Okay, so let me give you an example. All right, if you have somebody, so the United States taxes anyone who either has a physical presence in the United States, or they are somehow tied to the United States, so they have a child that has a U. S. citizenship, they are married to somebody with a U. S.

citizenship, they themselves have a U. S. green card, visa, something like that. The W A P E N, the way they complete that form tells you whether you’re supposed to do withholding, not do withholding. What’s supposed to happen for most of the people, I’d say 90, 92, almost 95 percent of people, you’re not going to have any issues with the W.

A. B. E. N. Like they don’t have any ties to the U. S. They’ve been in Bangladesh all their lives, right? And there’s no ties, no whatever, which means you send the money. It is their job to pay their taxes with their government. So just like a contractor would be here in the States, right? Yep. Great. That’s, that’s awesome.

And then the last piece, you know, when we were thinking about tax and withholding and, you know, the next thing that comes to mind is like unemployment. So if somebody doesn’t work out and I let them go. Um, I assume I just fire them, right? Like I pay them out for their time and energy. Uh, if we think some severance is, is reasonable, we, we do that.

And then we’re, uh, we’re sort of done. Is that, is that how that works? Yeah. And I mean, the, the best thing that I can liken it to is if you listener, right, have ever hired a 1099 contractor in the States, right. Contractor that’s, it’s exactly the same thing, right. We had a contract, you didn’t perform. Done.

That’s it. I paid you. We’re done. Right. So yeah, from that standpoint, it’s very simple. It’s very clear cut. So yeah, I love it. Cool. Now, is there scenarios where, um, I, I’m just thinking of some of the software tools we use. Yeah. You know, they’re, um, Asana, Trello, uh, you name it. Yeah. Right. And, and some of, we’ve got some financial software.

Is there scenarios where people, like different countries like that, that software, you know, is sort of set up to not, they can’t access it from a certain location. Right. You know. So this is because they think there’s some fraud or for sure, you do get this a lot where, um, especially Facebook tends to get really cranky.

If you have somebody logging in from Pakistan and it freaks out thinking somebody’s trying to steal your account, uh, it happens all the time. So what we recommend in cases like that is to actually set up a VPN, a virtual private network and have the contractor walk in from their machine to your VPN.

And then the VPN into. Whatever it is that they need to access. So there’s often 90 ways around any of that. Knowing that it’s a problem is you find out when somebody does something, you’re like my Facebook accounts locks. I need to go do it and tell them. No, that was me. It’s fine. You know, like that kind of thing.

So yeah. All right. Wonderful. Uh, this, this sounds incredible. So I, from my point of view, my next steps are, uh, is where’s, where’s the best place to go to get connected to talent? Is it talent dot com? Super easy to find us. Yeah. You can book an appointment with our recruiters, actually. Directly on the website.

Um, they’ll have a chat with you. What do you need? What are you looking for? That kind of thing. Um, and yeah, what I, the question you didn’t ask, but I thought you were about to ask is what is really my first step as somebody listening, um, for me, it’s writing out that’s the two weeks of tasks and looking at all the stuff that is, as you said, the level one, two, and three level jobs that you do not need to be doing.

And how do you get those off your plate? So. Yeah, that’s good. That was my next question. I was like, okay, do I go to talent? Gnome. And then once I like connect with you, then I show up with, here’s my tasks. Here’s my job description. Absolutely. You got it. Yeah. Wonderful. Uh, this is a. This is incredible. I’m going to be plugging into one of your, you know, recruiters here soon.

Just, uh, I’m like, I’m ready to hire everybody. They’re like, let’s just, let’s just start and see what, uh, you know, this, this, you know, I will give you a piece of advice there because I love it. And I love the enthusiasm. Absolutely. Imagine 10 brand new us people at the same time. You don’t want to do that.

Do one. Maybe two, right? Like you still need senior buddies and training and all that kind of jazz. But, um, yeah, I, I love the enthusiasm because I think really, you know, this is one of the biggest things that I’ve seen, you know, my, my personal experience with this, um, people just don’t understand what they can get.

What kind of help is out there? Because they, maybe they’ve tried to hire an assistant in their local city, town, whatever, and like, Oh, I’ve had the job out up for nine months and I can’t get anybody, so I’m just going to drop it. I guess I’ll deal with it myself.

And I think this is why, you know, when, when everything happened with the pandemic and everything else, it just opened people’s eyes to wait a second. It doesn’t matter if they’re sitting at the desk or the next city or the next country, and it’s just been such a blessing in disguise from that standpoint, um, to allow the world to better connect.

So, yeah, I love it. I love it. Cause right now I’m ready to, like, I’ve got a couple of VAs that I’m, I’m ready to, they, I have, I have so many emails and I’ve got a couple of different inboxes and they’re in there doing that work, but I would rather elevate them to like do the fours and fives that they’re good at and have somebody come in and, you know, Pick up a little bit of the slack on, you know, understanding how to process through my email and schedule appointments and, you know, do some data entry, you know, like that all sounds incredible place to start.

And then, you know, then we can see where we can take it from there. But, uh, yeah, well, we’ll be ready for you. Absolutely. Fantastic. Yeah, no, I’m, I’m, I’m on the website. I see the hire talent button. I’m getting ready to click it, uh, as soon as we’re done here. So, uh, this is, this is wonderful. So Shawna, outside of going to the website, is there, is there any other resources that, uh, sort of get people?

I think this, this podcast interview has been great, but, uh, is there anything else that people should get plugged into to, to learn more about hiring abroad? And, and how. Absolutely. I mean, we do have a YouTube channel now, please. Nobody laugh. Okay. It’s, it’s not the big, like super fancy, right. But we got a YouTube channel.

Tried to get up mostly education there from that standpoint. Uh, we do have, of course, you know, your Facebook and your Twitter and the tech talk and all those kinds of things. So yeah, I think the, the big piece of it, you know, It’s funny. The instant answer that comes into mind, and it has nothing to do with Talent Gnome, read Tim Ferriss Four Hour Workweek.

And if you are not implementing every piece of that book, including the footnotes, This is your chance to go do that. So, yeah, I remember reading that book 20 years ago and he talked about this, you know, how you could go get help, uh, overseas, have products produced overseas. And it was like, this is mind blowing.

Yeah. The big, big, big firms. And I think that’s what a lot of people just don’t understand. This isn’t new. Okay. Um, you know, I had mentioned that CPA client. Okay. The CPA industry has been hiring overseas for the past 50 years. Years, five, zero. Okay, a very long time. So, uh, yeah, you name it. The big industries.

I mean, we all know that’s the person picking up your, when you call AT& T. Right. So, yeah. And I think you’re absolutely hitting on, like, I’ve got CPA friends that are so old school. They’re like, I need to hire somebody in my town so they can come into the office. And I’m like, help me understand that, you know, I don’t, I don’t get it, you know, um, and they can’t hire, they’ve been trying for years and have zero luck.

Attracting talent, especially where I live in Iowa. Right? Like who wants to move to Iowa? Nobody. And, and even some of the talent they’re hiring, they get into the rhythm of a, you know, the CPA work, right? Like we have these, these peaks and valleys and some of them hate it. They’re like, no, I’m not doing this for another season.

I’m out. Some love it, but it’s like the real crazies that love the seasonality of it. Yeah. Yes. Cool. Why they don’t go, you know, offshore and find this talent to, you know, bridge the gap. Uh, and they’ll find out like, wow, I pay less. I get high quality work. I could have been doing this for 20 years. Yeah, exactly.

Yep. And it would have saved me lots of hassle. So. Well, you can, you can lead the worst to water. It’s kind of the commentary. Yeah. So, yeah. Fantastic. Shauna, this is amazing. Is there anything else that we should be thinking about and talking about when it comes to Talent Gnome and hiring abroad?

Steal from Nike. Just do it. Try one. Yeah. I love it. So I think there’s, there’s something to that. I had a mentor of mine once tell me like, your business will grow at the rate in which you make decisions. And they don’t say right decisions. They just say decisions. Right. And it’s like. Right. I’m so happy that years ago I hired a VA.

It’s, it’s reshaped our entire business. And now I’m like, okay, this is the next logical step. Let’s go find some talent that can help support our folks. So yeah, this is wonderful. Well, Shauna, thank you so much for this. I appreciate, uh, all of your wisdom and insight, uh, talent, gnome. com. We’ll have all of that in the show notes.

And, uh, this has been, this has been absolutely so much for having me. I’m thrilled to share with the world, the knowledge and opportunity for everyone. So As we’re getting our year end tax strategies implemented for our clients. We wanted to give you the tools that you need to save big money on tax this year.

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