055 | Why Mental Health Matters for Your Bottom Line with Dr. Joe

What would happen if your workplace gave mental health as much attention as other metrics? Welcome back to the Vital Strategies Podcast. I’m your host, Patrick Lonergan, and today I’m joined by Dr. Joe, a leader in mental health advocacy with the National Alliance on Mental Illness. In today’s episode, Dr.
Joe shares powerful insights on creating a stigma free workplace We’re real conversations about mental health can happen. We discuss why this change needs to start at the top, how vulnerability can strengthen teams and the costly consequences of ignoring wellbeing in the workplace. Stick around to learn how investing in mental health is not just a nice thing to do for employees.
It’s a smart business move. Dr. Joe or a Beck. I appreciate you joining us here today. You’re also comfortably known as Dr. Joe. So that, uh, that’ll. That’ll be easy. I’ll probably just keep referring to you as John, Dr. Joe throughout our discussion, but, uh, thank you for joining us. I’m excited about getting into this discussion about we’ll call it mental health in the workplace.
We we’ve had a number of these discussions, but I think it’s critical when we think about. Uh, starting at top down and how, as leaders, we can influence this, uh, and you’ve got a long history in, uh, we’ll say mental health, you’re CEO of NAMI Broward County, and NAMI is the National Association of Mental Illness.
Is that correct? Am I getting that right?
National Alliance on Mental Illness, but overall. You have it.
Okay. Very good. Thank you. Uh, so thank you very much for joining us here today. Uh, you’ve got a lot of experience helping uh, coach executives and sort of helping structure organizations to to have a Uh, not just high productivity You know, period.
But like we, we have to be mentally well to be productive organizations. And so I’m looking forward to getting into that, that discussion.
Great. Well, I thank you so much for, for the opportunity and, you know, it takes people like you and others to recognize, to be able to embrace the conversation as opposed to sweeping in underneath the rug.
And we have a lot of work ahead of us. However, with, uh, individuals and executives and leaders to be able to say, Now’s the time. Uh, and so, so let’s, let’s dive deep.
Yeah. Yeah, no, I think this is great. So I think one of the things that we need to work on, and I think there’s a shift in this is like getting the stigma around mental health out of the workplace.
Cause it’s, uh, it’s. I’ll say, especially with guys, right? As men, we think, Oh, I just need to like, uh, suck it up and just keep grinding through and then we start to see, you know, things like on one hand, we could have burnout, right? Like we’re, we’re just not okay. And our bodies shut us down. We we’ve seen clients that have been out for a few weeks just because, uh, they just kept grinding.
Um, and then, then we can also see it sort of manifest in other, you know, Behaviors that are also unhealthy, you know, it could be substance abuse, could be, you know, uh, affairs, gambling, you know, all these other vices that, uh, you know, can, can lead to, uh, unhealthy outcomes. And so I’m, I’m looking forward to talking about how we, how we can sort of reduce the stigma.
Is there a foundational, like, where do we start with this conversation? How do we bring it into the organization? To, uh, start to open up, like, Hey, it’s okay to not be okay.
Yeah. You know, great entree to be able to see who, to an extent, the question is who, who brings it in, who’s the individual. And what I have found in my years of experience is that fortunately, unfortunately it sits with the HR department.
Kind of thinking that, all right, well, you’re the expert, you, you help with benefits and to be able to realize kind of, um, what do we need to do? However, even to enter the conversation, it needs to come from the absolute top. It needs to come from the CEO, the president of the organization, whoever that might be, and generally, hopefully you’re, you formed your team to which you have.
That a conduit and your, your confidence, uh, to be able to, to coach, to be able to say, this is what we need to do because this is what we’re recognizing in the workforce. So it needs to be going back and forth to understanding what it is. A lot of the times at the top, there’s not a comfort level to even have that conversation.
So that’s where I have found that. In order even to get there to talk about it in within the workplace, it needs to first for executives to be able to start doing the deep work themselves. Uh, and we can go into into that and to be able to see kind of how does one even approach that and my own lived journey that too.
Yeah, yeah, no, I’m very interested in that because I can just speak personally. Uh, I go to. Counseling every week. We can call it counseling, mental health, coaching therapy. I don’t, I don’t care what you call it. Like, uh, I go and I think about my, my inner game, my mental game as like anything else. If I want to be really good at it, right?
Like the best in the world at things have coaches, right? And so like Tiger Woods has a, a golf swing coach, right? And yeah. He’s pretty good at, you know, at least he used to be. I’m thinking back, you know, when Tiger was at the pinnacle. Um, and so we, we look at LeBron and Taylor Swift and all these other people, they have coaches in their lives on these things that they think are super important.
So I think of it the same way. Like, I want to be maximally productive, if that’s the right word. Um, And the only way to do that is to have health and I’ll say all categories, right? I’ve got to be physically fit. I’ve got to be mentally fit, spiritually fit, emotionally fit. All of those things need to be, need to be dialed in.
So I say that, and I remember you’re talking about starting at the top. I remember putting, you know, this calendar appointment on my calendar, but I, I didn’t label it as, as counseling, you know, it was, it was labeled, you know, it was a private appointment or something along those lines. Forget this. Like, let’s, let’s just, just make this an okay thing to be having a discussion about and to have my team see it and go, Oh, cool.
Pat’s taking care of himself. That’s, that’s a good thing. So yeah. Other thoughts on how it can sort of enter the equation from, from top down.
Well, that right there being completely open and authentic. And vulnerable allows when the leader of the organization or the leadership of, of, of the company, the entity allows that vulnerability.
And transparency that immediately starts to send a signal to the workforce that if they’re doing this, maybe I can do it too. And I’m, and it’s a safe environment. So I want to ask you what, what allowed you to switch, to pivot from just calling it an appointment to. I’m going to, I’m going to now be more open and say that it’s council.
Yeah, I think it was, we actually, we had one of our clients, one of their key people, uh, it was a crazy year end and they, everybody was hustling to make things happen and. In the middle of it, he went out of the game. Like he, he just had a, we’ll call it a mental breakdown and, you know, it was in the hospital and then it was, it was really just stress related.
It was, it was because he hadn’t taken care of himself. And I, it’s so interesting to see how our mental and physical health are so intertwined. It’s like, I don’t, I don’t know where one starts and the other to be honest. And so, uh, I’m not sure where it was in this situation either. By all appearances, they, and they couldn’t really find anything wrong with him physically.
It was more of like, Hey, I’m mentally not okay. And so I was looking at that going, okay, we need to sort of make sure that this conversation is okay to be having, like, I’m not, okay, let’s, let’s have that be all right for somebody to raise their hand and say that. And so I’m going to just lead from the front and go, Hey, this is just something that’s on my calendar that, uh, Uh, and this is why I’m doing these things.
And, uh, it just allowed me, I have a really close relationship with that, that key person. And it just allowed us to have a really good conversation about, um, we’ll call it skills and pills, right? Like, uh, you know, sometimes I need the right, uh, skills and then, you know, it’s also okay to like, um, You know, use some medication to help, you know, get our brain chemistry in the right place.
So that was sort of the key, the key item on our end that sort of kicked it into, uh, Hey, this is okay to be, be talking about and have it on our calendar.
And with, with that, my, and we can go further with this too, but my expectation, my thought here is that probably once you did that and What, what kind of Cree and you don’t have to answer it right now, but what environment did that create for, for the rest of the team to be able to, to acknowledge that?
Yeah. And I think one thing that matters, uh, that we just try to do a good job of is like, I, I like to show our people that I care about them, not just from a productivity perspective, but I care about you as an individual. I like to connect with you and understand what’s going on in your life. And so. Um, And we’ve often had times where, you know, when I think about my priorities and I don’t expect my employees priorities to be any different, but it’s like, you know, my faith is at the top of the list.
My wife is next. Then my kids, then my personal health and wellbeing and then business. Okay. So if something comes up above work, I’m going to encourage you to go deal with that thing. Like, Hey, your kids are sick. Please go pick them up from school. Take the rest of the day off. Like we will figure out the work stuff.
Um, and so it, it sort of fit into that, you know, thought process of like, Hey, we’re all here trying to take good care of ourselves. Uh, it’s not about making another. Look, we want to run a championship organization, right? Period. End of story at the end of the day, but I’m not going to sacrifice a championship organization for, you know, the wellbeing of a team member.
So, um, and, and I think having that culture mindset to start with. Helped, uh, sort of make it go, Hey, let’s, this is something that aligns with those things that we’re, we’re, we’re talking about, and I think one last thing Is our core values, right? Uh, it starts with love for our team, clients and community.
And, uh, you know, we have to take care of the team before we take care of the clients. If we take care of the clients, then we can have impact in the community. And so it just sort of fit into those core values as well.
Outstanding. Well, and. And there you are. So that’s exactly when I’m looking and having conversations with C suite individuals one on one to be able to say, where are you at?
And how are you walking the talk with mental health and holistic wellbeing for your company versus performative? Uh, and, and that’s where, unfortunately, sometimes when I hear the conversation, when I talk about to certain companies to be able to see if the CEO is ready for this conversation or not, because that’s what I do.
It’s just like, I’m not coming on in because there’s different HR companies or HR department say, Oh, come on in. And we want you to talk about ending the stigma in the workplace. I’m like, I’m going to first have a conversation with your CEO and, and I need to see if we’re ready for this conversation. You know, I would say eight times out of 10, we’re ready to roll the other two out of 10, they’re, they’re not there.
They’re like, well, we have EAP. We have a couple of other things. And I’m just like, you know, there’s, there’s a lot more work that needs to be done because it can’t be performative. And you’re, you’re creating, you have, um, emotional intelligence that starts creating that empathy. For your, your employees and you set the stage
appropriately.
Yeah. So I got a question, you know, like I think about our, our organization and I can interact with everybody on a fairly regular basis. Like we also have clients that have 150 people in their organization and they might not even know everybody’s name. And I think when you start to grow to that size, it can be.
It can be easy for the culture to sort of get away from that. Like, Oh, Hey, I don’t want to say we’re Kumbaya like a small type family, but it can get away from that. You know, it can be much more performance metrics based. And, um, so how do you see, let’s say, let’s say a CEO is going, Oh, I recognize we’ve drifted away from, you know, this culture that we’ve used to have, you know, I I’m ready for this.
How do we take it from, you know, something that. Like in my organization, I can roll out tomorrow and talk to everybody between now and then, and have it all going versus like in a large organization where, you know, it’s a little more challenging, you know, it’s like, you know, steering a battleship versus a ski, but right, you know, it takes a little longer to make some of those.
Uh, those changes
and with one particular company that I’m working with right now is just, it’s, it’s fairly large and it is something that we needed to, I need to talk to the C suite, uh, and the executives to see, okay, we have to go slowly here, um, because in order, as we all know, in order to invoke change, you have to go that needs, it needs to go both ways.
So how are we going to do, what is the, what is the culture? And I do not expect me to come on in and it is you all need to identify where are our strengths, where our weaknesses and how do we know our employees, how do we know them as opposed to just numbers and data and analysis, because we are seeing more and more companies that are being much more nimble.
And very large companies as well to be able to say, we have to go deeper. So that is empowering the respective divisional leadership to be able to say, this is what I need to know. I know my workforce and then to be able to work its way down and then work its way up. So you have that symbiotic process.
It has to absolutely be buying. Buy in has to absolutely be at the top with everyone saying, we’re going to do this. Is it going to be easy? No. However, with the emerging workforce, those that are graduating out of, out of college and such, believe it or not, they are expecting that the company that they are entering will have this understanding and a wellness with mental health, wellbeing, and the overall holistic wellness of, of their employees.
Yeah, no, I think that’s, that’s, that’s great. And, you know, it also makes me wonder too, like how much of this could be grassroots from the bottom up, you know, like, I think if there’s enough as a leader, sometimes I’m ignorant to things, right. If I get enough discussion from the team, it’s like, Oh, I’m sorry.
I’ve missed this piece. Let’s start addressing this as a. piece of the conversation. And again, I think it goes back to culture and having a, um, The ability to have communication flow, you know, both directions, uh, from the bottom up and top down, but, uh, yeah. Um, I don’t know if you have any thoughts or comments on, on how this could be a little bit of a grassroots effort to like, Hey, you know, let’s, let’s sort of inspire leadership to, um, you know, implement some of these strategies.
It can be grassroots if there has been an example along the way. Um, because that is where, uh, for, from. From the top. If, if the, well, let me reverse that. If the grassroots are just saying, you know, we’ve tried it before and there’s just, it doesn’t go anywhere. You know, what is the environment that has been created?
What is there as far as, is there an incentive for that’s coming from all the different levels of the organization saying we believe in this and we’re going to do this, is it a, is it an employee work group or what, what it might be to be able to show we believe in this, our values as, as you have set up with your company.
We are doing this because our values say it, and we all have buy in. That is what I absolutely have seen as to when there is buy in at all levels, then you’re able to move it. You’re able to steer that huge ship. Um, but if there’s one area that’s just like, well, just if there’s An area that dismisses it, you’re,
you’re
done, you’re done.
Yeah, this is, this is great. So we’re, we’re talking a little bit and you mentioned this about vulnerability and authenticity and, um, I want to pick on authenticity for a minute. You know, I think authenticity can also be like substituted for I’m being a jerk. Like, like somebody will be like, Oh, I’m, I’m just being authentic.
This is just who I am. And it’s like, no, let’s, let’s, let’s not, you know, I can speak the truth in love. Right? Like I can tell you the truth in a way that is like, uh, shows that I care about you versus like clubbing you over the head with it. And so, um, You know, we, we’ve talked a little bit about vulnerability.
It needs to start at the top. And, uh, but can we talk a little bit about authenticity and just, uh, how to do that well, like from a, just a pure communication point of view, and then, uh, then we’ll get into what it means to be authentic and where I’m at in my. My mental health. Yeah. No, I,
this is, I so appreciate this too, because a lot of people don’t ask the question or even wanna dive into it because it’s, it’s, it’s vulnerable when you, when you talk about, so for authenticity, it is, and you said a key word too, when you say, I, so it, it’s, I feel this way.
This, this is just the way that I’m mm-hmm . The other piece that needs to, I have found personally with authenticity in my own work is that I need to realize. Do I understand where the person I’m speaking with, where they’re coming from? And if I’m ignorant, depending upon, you know, their own lived experience, be it from race, ethnicity, culture, socioeconomic, if I don’t have that, I need to acknowledge that.
And that’s being authentic, that I need to learn more. Or I don’t, I don’t know what’s going on. Um, or at least, you know, I don’t know where you’re coming from. And I want to, I want to understand better. Uh, and that is where you’re empowering in an individual to be able to show that you don’t know it all, which leads to your vulnerability, which then leads back to authenticity.
It’s, it’s, it’s that initial conversation, because quite honestly, and we know this, that the higher up that we go and the farther we advance, the quicker that we advance egos get more and more and more. So how, how, if I even enter a company and say, Hey, let me talk to you about how I can help you be a more authentic leader.
Boom. Doors are going to close really fast, you know, like, what are you talking about? I’m already authentic. Yeah. So we get there. And that’s even with my coaching is that, you know, that we’ll, we’ll get there, but I’m not going to leave with that. It’s more or less, how are people seeing you, but how are you interacting with them?
And so that’s the, the, that’s the lens that I have found personally in my success. Um, and not success too, but that’s where it’s.
Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that’s great. And this also leads me back to thinking about, you know, there’s, especially when somebody comes to me and I don’t necessarily agree with what they’re saying, I can still validate their feelings.
I cannot validate the things they’re saying and go, okay. I can see why you feel that way. Like I, I can understand that. And then I can approach with curiosity. And that, that takes me back to understanding where they’re coming from. Right. Like, Oh, tell me about that. Tell me why you feel that way. And like, again, it may come from all sorts of different, uh, you know, everything from their upbringing to.
You know, the conversation they had with their spouse before they walked into the meeting, you know, and so, uh, I think when we understand those pieces better, it allows us to, you know, show up and help. I’m willing to, if somebody has done that, if they validated the way I feel and they approached me with curiosity, now I’m open to hearing what you have to say.
You know, versus like, especially if we’re not, if I, I’m not agreeing on a topic and I start immediately defending, you know, myself or the position that, you know, uh, that I feel like I’m being attacked on, it can be really hard to have, you know, vulnerable and authentic conversations. Uh, so
no, that’s true because you’re, you’re setting up in a conversation to whereby you’re respecting the individual.
And you’re also acknowledging you might not know everything and, and that’s, you’re putting on yourself as opposed to you, you, you, you, right? And this is, this is the other piece too, that as we, you know, create a safe environment for conversations, whether it be, um, moving up in an organization or from a mental health stand, and how do we make a productive, engaged workforce?
That is where you have more buy in and people feel comfortable of being their own, and then you go into being their authentic self. Which it’s hard. It’s hard because, you know, really in society, we’re not taught that certain generations are not taught, have not been taught that. However, the younger generation now are, and that’s where they’re more comfortable.
And so we have this multi generational workforce where there’s some dissonance.
Yeah, that’s great. So, Can we maybe talk about misconceptions with vulnerability? Like what are some common misconceptions about being vulnerable in the workplace?
Sure. All right. Um, well, especially if you have a position of leadership authority that you’re completely weak, you know, you’re going to start crying in front of me being vulnerable, you know, so, so we’ve, we’ve got work to do, let’s get, let’s get to business and, and, and, and so with that, then it shuts down.
Down all communications, or when you’re in a meeting, you, I mean, I’ve been a part of those too. And earlier in my career, I’ve been leading those meetings with when you’re asking her any, any additional questions, give me feedback here. I’m completely open to feedback and just the delivery. Everyone’s just like, yeah, no, no question.
Say it. Great. I think we’re, we’ll continue to move on. So it’s like, how do you create, so then he goes, how do you create that? What is that vulnerable vulnerability? And, and you don’t have to share every single thing about yourself because that’s, that takes amazing work. And, and, and for you, quite honestly, let me acknowledge this too, for you.
Um, going to therapy every week, same here with me, you know, that, that, that is showing, you know, that’s vulnerability. That’s just like, I’m going to, it’s, I’m going to move that. And so you can show it in a physical sense. You can show it in just a conversational sense. Um, and, and, and it’s beyond performative.
Uh, and, and that is what’s really, really important for people, for employees to understand.
Yeah, no, this is, this is great. So, and, and I know you do seminars on, you know, vulnerability and authentic leadership. Um, is there some, some practical steps that you’re just like, okay. Here’s number one, here’s where we start.
And this is sort of the framework that we walk through. How do you help leadership, you know, go from being completely invulnerable? You know, like, I’m not going to discuss any of these things to, uh, because I feel like, and correct me if I’m wrong here, I feel like this is very similar to Uh, we’ll, we’ll call it running a marathon, right?
Like I can’t go from sitting on the couch, not moving at all to go out on a Sunday and run, you know, the, the 27 miles, right. Or 26. 2, uh, that I, that I need to run, uh, to complete a marathon. Like that would just be a disaster. And. You know, what I need to do is like, I need to get up and go for a walk, you know, and then that may be, I need to start jogging a mile and then eventually I’ll get up to a 5k and I guess start, I can get to the point then where I, I’m, you know, can complete a marathon.
Is it similar in, you know, opening up this, this conversation and sort of culture inside of an organization? Does it start with, um, You know, we, we start here, step one, we’ve got to get off the couch. Um, or is there that drive through breakthrough that, uh, you know, we sit down for a few hours and all of a sudden we’ve got this magic cultural change.
So you’re going to hit the answer as far as it all depends. It depends on the culture of the organization. That’s kind of where initially the assessment and the talking that I have with different, with the leadership helps me understand as to where we’re at. If they’re just like, you know, we, we have these meetings every week.
We, we work, we have the employer work group. And we do a variety of, like, this organization, I can, I can, and it’s all bespoke, you know, it’s customized to be able to see where we are. So I absolutely agree. It’s just like, it, it is not a one and done that. And that’s kind of where, how I need to have the conversations with the CES for them to realize that where are we just even having this conversation, is this finally an aha, and that in one company about a month ago, they were like, So we really haven’t done a lot about mental health and can you come on in about doing a presentation and in the stigma?
And I’m like, all right. And so I gave them one presentation. Just the HR said, here, kind of look at this. Um, and, and they came back saying, that’s too much. I’m like, okay, let me pull it back. Um, and we can go very slowly with this. I just, again, it’s through my assessment. They, and sometimes even with the assessment that I give, It falls flat because even those in the leadership positions aren’t tuned in.
So I’ve realized that it is, it is, uh, uh, you know, a relationship here in the partnership, because we, and I can’t say that we want to get it right because what does right mean it’s just congratulations. Number one for acknowledging. That this is something that we need to do. And yes, it is. We need to train to be able to slowly get into condition to start ramping it up.
And how do we empower? And there’s just different ways. Again, how is the organization, the culture set up for it? So there is not one bright light. Is there an overall here, here is, and I have, I’m gone insane. Here’s the curriculum of what it can be. Okay. Um, we can do pieces of this. We can put it together and such.
However, if your outcome is this, or what is your out? What does that mean? And if people say we just want to be more authenticity and more vulnerability, I’m like, well, and this is kind of even my executive coaching is just like, well, let’s, let’s take time one on one. All right. I am not a licensed psychologist.
However, I’ve, I’ve worked with exec with psychologists specializing in executives. And that’s how I like. Had my breakthrough and to be able to in a very positive way. So that’s kind of what I do want to say is that it’s hard to find, you know, an executive support group. Um, and, and they’re there, they are out there, but when you have.
CEOs that are very vulnerable with each other in a very confidential setting. The amazing work that can be done as far as, because then it benefits you as an individual in your own personal life and then into your company as well.
Yeah, I love that. And this is a little bit of an aside, but I feel like in today’s.
Society, we have all these connections, but we don’t have any like deep, meaningful friendships, you know, and again, I I’m speaking as a man, women might be different, but I think if we, if I generalize with men, it’s like, it’s no problem getting a group of guys together to go cheer the sports, you know, event of the season, like no problem with that, but like sitting down and talking about it, Talking to a buddy and going, Hey, I’m not.
Okay. I’m not okay. In my marriage. I’m not okay. Mentally. I’m not okay. You know, whatever. Like we just don’t like to have those conversations. We like to put the facade on, like we have it all all figured out. So I think this leads me to my next question. It seems like the challenge might start at the top.
It does start at the top, right? Like let’s, let’s get leadership to agree that this is something that is important to. You know, implement and so I think what other challenges sort of pop up and then what are on the opposite side? What are the rewards for for putting in the work and dealing with those challenges?
So let me make sure I get so the first question is because I definitely got the second part too So the first one again, can you say that?
Yeah was so if we take a look at you know, there’s there’s definitely challenges to Bringing vulnerability and authenticity into the workplace, you know, and and some of those challenges start at the top but is are there additional challenges that Are out there and then once we face those challenges, what are the rewards for, uh, dealing with those,
you know, the, the external factors, uh, of the, well, and the challenges is kind of just driving the company and how are we making sure that, you know, dependent upon we’re in quarter four now, are we hitting our goals for the year and setting that up and how are we anticipating of growing?
What does that look like? What does the economy look like? And, and, and so are we hitting all of that? However. Going back to we cannot do what we want to be able to do if we don’t have the workforce in place
to
be able to support. So then that goes back into put the money and the resources into our people.
So, so that we can understand how we go about driving that and, and, and making sure that they feel validated, understood, and heard, um, and, and that then therefore in the values of the company and the brand of the company, when you have employees talking to their own social groups, be it spiritual, financial, social groups, whatever, talking about their company and, Oh my gosh, I love working where I am because they get it.
I feel like I can contribute. How is leadership creating that? So it’s this amazing, wonderful wheel of progress. So going back to kind of what, you know, what are the rewards though? That is the reward that you have, um, with your onboarding, as well as your retention of your employees, that if that is not, if mental health, and this is a, and, and Nami did an amazing, um, research study that came out in January.
About, uh, the workforce and what I’ve really picked up speed with this. And I’m absolutely made it my own because of my own. lived experience too, is that, um, if it’s a multi billion dollar loss, when you look at it, when you’re not addressing the mental health in the workforce, burnout, you know, it’s just people like, I’m, I’m done.
So that’s like, it’s, it’s an incredible reward system that’s put in place.
Yeah, that’s, that’s great. And, and I think the, one of the challenges I see as a business owner is like, if I put a dollar into marketing, I can almost guarantee I’m going to know the rate of return on that. You know, I put a dollar in, I’m going to get a dollar 50 out in revenue.
Okay, cool. Let’s do that. If it’s two bucks, three bucks, 10 bucks, like I’ll be full gas on that. I think there can be some challenge on, like, I’m going to make this investment in my workforce, but it’s going to be really hard to measure. It’s going to be hard to measure like what the output is. You know, I think a year from now I can probably measure, I can probably go, wow.
Are, you know, we were more productive. We had less time off, you know, and I’m not saying that, you know, I think we should take time off. The data seems to support, if you don’t take at least two weeks off a year, you’re less productive. So I think we should encourage that as business owners, but like, you know, there’s less sick days.
We could call it, uh, versus, you know, people like they should go vacation. Um, and then I think we’ll go, okay, wow. You know, my team is thriving, you know, uh, however we want to define that. Like they are, they’re crushing it in every capacity from a, you know, mental health, productivity at work, like everybody’s succeeding.
That’s exciting. Um, so yeah, I, I, I think that’s really good, but I think that’s probably the challenge for. business owners to go, yes, I see this as a good idea, but I’m not sure, you know, what my ROI is going to be if I invest these dollars into this, this, you know, initiative. So,
and it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s the retention of your employees, you know, and so it’s the retention are people coming, showing up, are they showing up, you know, or you have the, do you have the silent quitting?
And that’s where. You know, that, that’s a more, uh, newer term, uh, as far as silent quitting, that dependent upon generationally people get it or they don’t get it. Uh, and so that’s kind of the other piece to, to recognize how do we address all, all of this? And it’s that holistic sense. And so they’re showing up, but you’re just like, they’re not doing the work.
I’m like, well, why is that? And how is leadership. Showing that taking a vacation, not answering emails after a certain time, you know, all of that is, is it performative? Or is it actually, are we, are we doing what we’re saying that we’re doing to be able to show and giving permission that I’m taking it off, I’m shutting off and I expect you to do the same.
Yeah, I love that. I I’ve gotten to the point where I have an app on my phone that, uh, I can get into my email if I really need to, but all of the like work. Apps on the weekend or just shut off. Like I can’t reflexively open my phone and hit the email, like, which is what I do. And so
that’s amazing. Cause that’s hard.
That’s really hard. Pat is absolutely hard for a lot of people to just shut it off because you feel what happens when what’s going to happen. I don’t know. And so that’s again, your own work seeing what try.
Yeah. And I’ve done a fair amount of research these last year or so into what we’ll call the Sabbath and whether you think, you know, from a spiritual perspective, that’s important or not.
Uh, the data is saying it is so good for you to take a day completely off, to be unplugged, to like totally refresh and relax. You’re just more productive the other six days than if you just keep grinding all, all week long. So, uh, that’s, that’s. Something that I think is worth highlighting. And then you also brought up another thing that I think is critical.
Uh, I think we underestimate the importance of the onboarding process. And there’s, I wish I could remember this statistic, but it’s something like in the first 30, 60, 90 days, I can’t remember the timeframe employees decide whether they’re staying long term or not in that organization. And, um, I think we as leaders can set the stage in those discussions when we’re onboarding and training people.
Not that we’re necessarily doing it, but we’re making sure that people understand there’s zero expectation to respond to an email on the weekend. You might get one, which is totally fine. And you can send one totally fine, but please don’t expect an immediate answer. You know, this is not like instant messaging.
Uh, same thing with the vacation expectations. Like, like we don’t have defined vacation, like Take as much as you want. We’re, we’re a results based organization. So, um, but I look at it. And if you’re not taking at least two weeks off, we’ve got a problem. So I I’m sort of the other way. Like, I don’t understand the organization that makes you like earn your time off.
I’m like, you’re just going to have a less productive employee. So you should give them two weeks vacation to start with. So foundational pieces that you’re talking about. Can be a part of the onboarding process, which a sets the expectation and B puts the person in a position to go, wow. Okay. I love what this organization stands for.
I’m excited about, about being here. So, and I don’t know if you have anything to add to that. Well, I would just say
with, with, which is outstanding. And then the onboarding is then how, how has that sustained? So is it just in the onboarding or is it part of the culture? And this is just a, again, not looking for an answer, but just for people to an executive, people in leadership positions to think about is like, how do we now continue with that?
And that even further sets up the, the new employer from an onboarding saying that this is just not about the onboarding process where this is part of our culture. And we’re going to check in with you. And this is how it’s going to happen, uh, to be able to do that. Always open to feedback as far as what you think, but it’s, it’s incumbent upon us, especially with a newer, newer, newer professional that you are completely, it’s a tabula rasa, a blank slate that, that they’re coming on in and you are on it.
Able to create this amazing experience that hopefully they will pay it forward in their career. Just saying, I just had an amazing experience and you, you become a, the company becomes a best practice as to how we onboard and how that continues on. So, so I will always ask companies to be able to think about it’s not a one and done.
It’s not a three months, six months. It is how do I continue. Doing that so we can continue seeing this is because then it’s just like, yeah, this is just part of the company culture, which is remarkable.
Yeah. I love that. And I also remember hearing about, uh, core values, mission, vision, that type of thing.
About the time as a leader, you’re sick of saying it is about the time people start recognizing you even have these things, you know, you’ll be like, I’m blue in the face. And your team is finally like, Oh, we’ve got a mission statement. I couldn’t tell you what it is, but I know we have one, you know, uh, same thing with core values.
And so, uh, I think that’s something to just piggyback on what you were saying. Like, Just, you just have to keep beating the drum on these things, uh, regularly in your team meetings and your communications. Like they, they just need to be front and center regularly.
And why? And I think that is where, you know, from, uh, an entry level employee or a middle manager.
When you’re talking about the core values of the strategic plan and such, they’re just like, you know, I, I’m not in it here. And that’s where they shut down. Um, but to be able to say what, what is, why is it important for you employee? You’re number one, number two, number three coming on. Why it’s important because you are the lifeblood of this organization and we want, we want to help you support it.
And you’re the brand and we are the brand, uh, and to be able to do that. So those are the things that I’ve experienced again, my own, uh, career is that when I’m just like, don’t you know, the strategic plan, don’t you know, the core value and they’re like, no, and why, but when you’re at the leadership level and you’re talking about it all the time, Yeah,
that’s great.
Very good. So now I want to shift the discussion a little bit to, you know, on one end of the spectrum, I feel like we have a thriving organization. Okay. On the other end of the spectrum, we have a toxic organization. You know, it’s, it’s. For lack of a better term, literally killing the people, right? Like it is, their health is getting worse and it’s, uh, it’s not good.
So I think about toxic and toxic can happen a few different ways. It can happen because there’s, uh, leadership just is. Maybe has the wrong values. Uh, and that’s going to be hard to change. Uh, if that’s the case, might be time to find, you know, a different organization or they might recognize, Hey, we’ve, we’ve unintentionally created a toxic work environment, you know, we’ve incentivized bad behavior and we need to make some changes there.
Um, I think. I’m generally curious how you identify a toxic work environment. And then what are some of the strategies that we can utilize to help, help change some of that?
There, there are certain elements when, uh, that have been identified, even in re research, when you’re, uh, that are saying the, you have an absolute toxic work environment.
So when you think about who’s, who’s leading, or if it’s a particular area. Uh, is it a department division, uh, entity? And so you need to think about and look at the individuals that are leading it. So you have to think about, is it, is it us as far as the employees, or is it we, as far as the leadership? So, you know, when you think about is, is the leader of the organization of that area, are they open to feedback?
You know, just, uh, how have we allowed that, uh, opportunity and have we coached them? It was, is it on us for not providing that, uh, onboarding or that leadership for, For, for no, no feedback. Um, is there creating a heavily micromanaged, uh, that are wanting to know every single piece about what, what is getting done and, and is there to, is there empowerment or not empowerment of the staff?
Um, and then to be able to see that as far as the, you’re constantly talking about ROI and we need to be able to make our goal and is it constantly about budget and such. And so that is just taking the air. Out of everyone’s tires, the proverbial message there. So when you look at all those different components and there’s more too, but those are the three out of the five, those are the ones that significantly create that toxic environment.
Um, where people are just like, that’s. Now that’s not for me.
Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s, that’s really interesting. Cause I’m thinking about this from a couple of different perspectives. Like, Hey, I think somebody could have a toxic environment because they, you know, I don’t think anybody sets out to go, you know what I want a toxic workplace.
I can’t wait to like create this thing that just destroys people. Right. I don’t, I don’t think anybody wants that. Uh, but I think it can happen unintentionally. So I think that’s one way. Then the other is, uh, we’ve got a number of clients that are acquiring businesses and you might have a great culture and you might bring in, you know, this, this thing.
Business. It’s not, not your size, but it’s like, Oh my goodness. We have, we have some issues over here. Um, and I think it goes back to some of the things you were talking about. It’s like, okay, we need to assess where this toxic toxicity lies. And then we have to figure out if we can. Uh, and I’m curious, you know, thoughts for change.
Is it like, okay, we need to coach this person up. We need to change some of these incentives. Uh, yeah. How, how do we go about like, you know, merging these cultures together and fixing some of the toxicity that might be there, because it might be something that Um, nobody’s ever had to deal with before because they’ve always had a thriving culture.
And now they’ve got a toxic one and they’re like, I don’t know what to do with this.
And it’s where I will always would ask the question is how has this transitioned? What, where’s the communication? And I, that’s the other piece too, when people say, we just have to have better communication. And I’m like, let’s, we have to go deeper because that’s just.
Um, uh, How, how are we helping people understand the decision behind this? Because everyone is human and it needs to be humanized as opposed to this is a business decision. This is what we need to do. Yeah, yeah, it is. However, there are humans involved here and lives and you don’t know what Joe over here has just gone through with his family.
That now this is happening. So that’s from a holistic stand. And when we humanize it, that is more or less. And I have worked with other consultants to which they help with when a company is bought out and so forth to be able to help transition and such. I personally have just done it once when we had to, I had to outsource a particular entity.
And people just thought that this bus was going to come on and new employees were going to get off the bus. They were going to have to get on the bus and leave. I’m like, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is kind of how it, so it all is about process, talking to each other, explaining and you, and even over explaining and to be able to have people within each parts of the company to be able to talk to each other.
So this is it’s relationships. It, this all gets down to. How we’re having conversations and relationships and trust, because clearly when they’re buying out a company or are merging and such, that trust evaporates and so how has the leadership is understanding that?
Yeah, this is wonderful. And I think one thing too, that you’ve sort of mentioned a few times, but I think this would be a great time to reach out to you, Dr.
Joe and go, Hey, I need some professional help. I’m really good at running my business. I’m not good at some of these, uh, we’ll call them culture things that I need to create. Need to change to create a, you know, world class, uh, environment for people to thrive in. So I think that, uh, is, is something for, for people to consider as well.
Can you give us a little bit of overview? If, if somebody was like, Hey, I need this in my organization. I understand, um, you know, we’re, we’re big believers in who not how, like I don’t need to know how to do it. What I need is somebody that I can bring into my organization that can help me execute on all these things.
So if somebody wants to bring you in, can you just talk through the different opportunities? Yeah, I appreciate that
too. So, you know, there’s three different components, uh, to which, uh, an individual can, or a company can, can look at what we offer. And it’s from, uh, Uh, let me first talk about the, how do we have conversations from trainings to be able to see what are different elements as far as the workplace be a toxic thing, or just we want to start start the conversation about embracing mental health and ending the stigma in the workplace and are there additional bonus trainings that you can do?
Yes, we can, we can start that. We can absolutely bring it in a variety of ways. It’s all, it’s all curated. This is kind of when you look at my website to be able to see what it is. That’s absolutely the baseline. However, it is completely after time to curate it. It’s. for your organization and then the resources to which the company sits.
So if it’s within, you know, the greater Chicago area, if it’s in the, uh, if it’s in rural Nebraska, whatever that, that’s my job to be able to work, you know, to be able to see, okay, here’s some additional resources. So it’s teaching how to fish, uh, and then we’re able to go from that. Um, so that’s from the workshop trainings.
Uh, that the other piece to is from keynote speaking that if it’s really good success of just the ideas of, Hey, we’re, we want to roll this out to, to our, um, or even within an association that people are belong to, uh, to be able to say, we get. We firmly believe that this is something that we need to talk about as far as mental health and leaderships and how, how do we embrace that?
So there’s a variety of different topics that I’ve been able to do as well. And then, you know, one on one as far as, you know, with you as, as a leader of your company, kind of how do we, how can I help? To be able to continue with this conversation and to really strengthen what you already bring to the table.
But it takes time in order to do that. And there’s different ways. Um, you know, I have a whole, and I will say it here. There’s a whole framework to which I’ve created of, of, excuse me, the, the. Uh, for, um, life first and I will say it here that no one takes it away is just everyone talks about the work life balance, work life balance.
I push back on that and I actually say, you know, why do we, if we’re looking for that, why do we lead with work? Work.
Mm-hmm . . Yeah. Yeah. I love it.
And I, and I believe that it’s, it’s life first, and then maybe we can kind of talk a little bit about what that looks like, because there’s never balance. Uh, yeah.
So there, there’s, thank you. There’s ways, there’s ways in which we can move through that. Um, and so we had some really good success that, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, you’re, you’re in it for the long haul. You know, and I, and I appreciate that the marathon approach because I, you know, I personally, I do, um, Spartan sprints.
I don’t do it full, but this is, this is kind of that you have to train and you have to start, um, something to know that, you know, and the other piece here is if you don’t start doing it now, when, when are you, and are you going to do it by yourself? You haven’t, you haven’t done it by yourself.
Yeah, absolutely.
That’s, uh, That’s so good. And I, I get really frustrated with the work life balance thing. And, and I’m like, it’s not balance. I don’t, I don’t want equal amount of work in my life, right? Like that, that, that sounds, I like the concept of like harmony. I want harmony in my life. And I want the, you know, if we think about going to listen to the orchestra, you have the right amount of violin and the right amount of.
Base and, you know, all of the instruments come together to form, you know, a beautiful piece of music. And if you, if you get out of harmony, right, uh, in your life, then things get out of whack, just like that piece of music. And so he just said it. So
that’s my approach. The framework is life work harmony.
Yeah. And so to be able to know that that fluidity is incredibly Yeah. That’s why we’ll continue. It’s like nails on a chalkboard for those people that know what a chalkboard is.
Now
it’s just like, it’s not worth life balance. That is kind of where, and you don’t, you see, that’s, that’s kind of the other piece that I coach and just saying, how do we, how do we just shift that lens?
That framework.
Wonderful. Dr. Joe, this has been amazing. Uh, is there anything else? That we should be talking about before we talk through, you know, how people can get best in touch with you.
You know, it’s, I think to recognize that to give grace to everyone, that’s starting to talk about this more and more, uh, and that I so appreciate what this platform that you allow Patrick, because, um, and not to let it sit on the shoulders of HR.
So that, that is where, um, to be able to, for leaders, CEOs, executives to understand their partners. However, to be able to lead in or lean in to the C suite, to be able to say, this is all of us, and we might not be comfortable and we all have strengths, uh, but it’s really important that we, because it blends into your life and that, that’s incredibly important.
I love it. Wonderful. So, if somebody wants to engage with you, what’s the best way to do that? And we’ll, we’ll have links to all this in the show notes, but, um, yeah, where should people start?
Well, I have my website for joeoravec. com and you’ll be able to put that in, just put it right on out there. And I also, I mean, I’m, Pretty good on social, uh, platforms as well.
So LinkedIn, um, is really important, uh, to be able to engage, write that right away, um, on, not necessarily on the weekends, uh, but I’m, I’m extremely responsive as well. And then Instagram too, is it, um, that I recognize, but everything is on, um, when you go to the LinkedIn, um, and even on my website, as far as a link tree to be able to do that.
And, and what I really do is that what we, how we kind of set up a. Uh, consultation, uh, it could be 15 minutes or a half an hour to then, uh, see if this is a, if it’s a good fit to be able to say, should we, and then we can talk longer. Uh, but that’s kind of as far as, because I have, I have expectations to be able to say, okay, you’re really in it.
Or is it just kind of, well, someone told me that I needed to do it.
Yeah, I love it. Wonderful. Yeah, we’ll have links to your website, uh, because Oravec is O R A V E C Z.
That’s right. Yes. Yeah. So it’s joewaravek. com. And so, yeah.
So we’ll, we’ll have all of that in the show notes. So people can, uh, check out your, your resources, but Joe, this has been great.
I appreciate all the work you’re doing. I think it, it matters, uh, not just from a productivity dollars and cents, but like, you know, that’s, that’s a. Benefit to doing all this work, but like the people, you know, this is, this is creating better lives. Uh, people are living, we’ll call it in harmony, uh, with work.
And that’s, um, that’s a wonderful thing. So appreciate you.
Excellent. Well, thank you. I mean, you’re, you’re creating an incredible platform to be able to do that. Wonderful.
Thanks doctor. Have a great day. All right. You too. That brings us to the end of today’s episode on the vital strategies podcast. I hope you’re walking away with new ideas on how to make mental health a priority in your workplace.
A big thank you to Dr. Joe for sharing his expertise in illustrating the powerful impact of supporting mental wellbeing in a professional setting. As you consider ways to enhance your team’s mental health and productivity. Remember that investing in people is one of the most valuable moves you can make for more tools on creating a resilient and engaged workplace culture, head to vital strategies.
com forward slash mental health. As we’re getting our year end tax strategies implemented for our clients, we wanted to give you the tools you need to save big money on tax this year. To access the resources that can help you create a tax strategy, head over to vitalstrategies. com forward slash cornerstones for access to all of our free resources.
These tools are designed to help you pay less tax, build more wealth, and live a great life. Again, that’s vital strategies. com forward slash cornerstones. Remember these dollars are better used in your hands than in the hands of the government bureaucracy. Thank you for listening and for being a vital entrepreneur.
You’re vital because you’re the backbone of our economy, creating opportunities for your employees and driving growth. You’re vital to your family, fostering abundance in all aspects of life. And you’re vital to me because you strive to build wealth, make an impact through your business and live a great life until next time I’m Patrick Lonergan, and you’ve been listening to the vital strategies podcast.