071 | If You’re Not Selling, You’re Not Scaling—Dave Hanley’s Strategies for Growth

[00:00:00] Patrick Lonergan: Are you struggling to grow your business because sales just aren’t where they need to be? Or maybe you have a great product, but the customer just isn’t coming like you expect it. If that sounds familiar, then today’s episode is for you. Welcome back to another episode of the vital wealth strategies podcast.
[00:00:16] Patrick: I’m your host, Patrick Lonergan. And today we’re diving into one of the most crucial aspects of business growth sales, whether you’re an entrepreneur looking to scale or just trying to figure out why your business isn’t reaching that next level. This conversation is going to change the way you think about sales forever.
Joining me today is Dave Hanley, a seasoned entrepreneur. B2B sales expert and three time founder with over 200 million in successful exits. He’s worked in tech, SaaS and enterprise sales, and he knows firsthand what it takes to turn a struggling sales process into a revenue generating machine. In this episode, Dave shares his COD framework, a game changing way to structure your sales messaging.
[00:00:55] Patrick: The biggest mistake entrepreneurs make when selling and why having the best product isn’t enough to succeed. He also reveals how to develop a repeatable sales process that can help you scale your business beyond 10 million in revenue. If you’ve ever thought, I built it so they should come, this episode is going to shake up that mindset.
[00:01:14] Patrick: Stick around to the end because we’re covering strategies that could completely transform the way you approach sales and ultimately the success of your business. Before we dive in, if you’re an entrepreneur making over a million dollars a year and you’re not actively working to minimize your tax burden, you’re losing money.
[00:01:30] Patrick: That’s exactly what we help with at Vital Strategies, visit vitalstrategies. com forward slash tax to see how much you could be saving. Let’s dive in. Dave Hanley, thank you for joining us here today. I’m excited about this conversation. You’re an entrepreneur, seasoned B2B sales practitioner and coach, and also a three time co founder.
[00:01:48] Patrick: So you’ve been through the ringer, understand what it takes to. Uh, build a business from, from scratch into something that is, um, you know, very healthy over 10 million in sales. And I think this conversation is going to be great. So thank you so much for joining us here today.
[00:02:03] Dave: And thanks for having me, Patrick.
[00:02:05] Patrick: So I like to just jump in and I think about what it takes to get to. 10 million in, in sales and revenue into our, our business. And oftentimes we, we start off with a great product and we’re excited about that. Most of the time, if we think about the book, the entrepreneur myth, right? The good technician comes in and they start, they’re like, I’ve got a fantastic opportunity for the marketplace.
[00:02:26] Patrick: Let’s push this out there. You build it and they will come. But I think the problem with that is quickly, we find out that just because I built it, uh, they don’t necessarily come. Now, I, I think there’s a key point that we need to like identify. I have to have a great product, right? Like I can, I can go put a great marketing and sales system in place, but if I’m selling a piece of crap, it’s not going to work out in the marketplace, but I can also have a great product.
[00:02:48] Patrick: And if I don’t have fantastic sales and marketing to go along with it, um, you know, we’re, we’re not going to see the success we want, so. Yes. Thank you so much for joining us. I’m, I’m looking forward to, uh, to this when I think about the problems that the entrepreneur has, I generally see, you know, the first one is they create the product, then all of a sudden it dawns on them, like, okay, I’ve got to, I got to start making some sales.
[00:03:13] Patrick: You know, I’ve got to. Increase revenue because now I’m starting to take on overhead and all those other pieces and it’s a challenge. And then there’s the problem with how do I juggle all of this, right? Like I’m, I’m running the business and generally I’m trying to make some sales. And then, you know, there’s almost a philosophical problem of.
[00:03:29] Patrick: Man, I have a great product. Why, why aren’t people like showing up and, and buying this? So, um, yeah, I, I’d like to get into a little bit of the, uh, the thinking about how we, how we scale up our, our business to, we, we get to the point of, of 10 million in sales.
[00:03:47] Dave: Yeah. Well, Patrick, it’s, um, you know, like you said, I think, you know, you mentioned one of the, the.
[00:03:53] Dave: Kind of precursors to this whole, you know, growing your business and driving revenues, having a great product, right? I would actually tweak that a little bit and say, you have to have a good enough product, right? As you mentioned, you know, I was a, I’m a three time co founder of various businesses. One was an enterprise software company.
[00:04:08] Dave: The other was a, a SAS company. And the other one was a, um, an ad tech marketplace. And every time I would say, you know, Humbly, we had a good enough product, right? And in every case we had some competitors that frankly, I think they had better products than us. Right. But what we had that they didn’t have is really, really strong sales acumen.
[00:04:30] Dave: And that set us apart. And frankly, you know, I firmly believe that, um, good sales can be a, a differentiator and it can be a strategic advantage over your competition.
[00:04:40] Patrick: Yeah. And, and, and if I, I think an easy example to point to is. McDonald’s does not have the best hamburger, right? Like they are not selling the best hamburger in the marketplace, right?
[00:04:52] Patrick: What they’re, they’re selling is, I’ll say a little bit of consistency, but they’ve got a great. Marketing and sales machine that, uh, just continues to drive people to McDonald’s to keep buying that, I’ll say terrible products. Uh, so, uh, yeah, no, that’s, um, that’s a, that’s a fantastic point. And I think there’s just something to about, you know, telling a compelling story right in the marketplace to get people to go, Hey, yeah, that.
[00:05:20] Patrick: That might not be the best product, but I don’t need to go test everything in the marketplace. I’ve got trust with, uh, that organization and I, I can move forward with this transaction and, uh, it will, it will be good enough to, to get the job done. So I’m excited to hear about like, cause I think this is a struggle that so many entrepreneurs have, right.
[00:05:39] Patrick: You know, we, we think about the entrepreneur aspiring to, you know, make a million dollars in, in net income, right. Or, or more. We need to have a tremendous sales, right? If I have 10 percent profit margin on 10 million, now I finally net my, uh, my, my million dollars. Now I might be in a service business that has higher margins and I have to quite get to that threshold, but I think that’s it.
[00:06:05] Patrick: A great place to, uh, to get to. Now, I think one thing that I find really interesting is you look at the marketplace and you see a business opportunity and you know that you can take your sales skills and apply it and, and take that business to the next level. Cause you, you, you identified. The success you had in three different businesses, and those were all three different arenas.
[00:06:26] Patrick: It wasn’t like you were doing software, right? Yep. Yep. So, um, I’m, I’m looking forward to hearing what those like foundational principles are to, to take sales to the next level.
[00:06:38] Dave: Because Patrick, it really does apply to any business. And then keep in mind, you know, I’ve spent my career in, in B2B. So when I’m, you know, this conversation today is more revolving around, Hey, you’ve got a product, you’re trying to sell it to a company who’s trying to achieve some, some type of outcome.
[00:06:53] Dave: Um, and I think, you know, what really opened my eyes quite a bit to the problem that a lot, a lot of entrepreneurs have is after my first two companies, I took a little bit of a hiatus and I went to. Spend some time as an entrepreneur in residence at a startup accelerator. Um, I’m originally from the Toronto area, great startup accelerator.
[00:07:14] Dave: They’re called the DMZ and they had, I think it was like 60 or 70 companies in there. And my job was to sit in a room two days a week and these founders would come in and I’d say, okay, here, I’m here to help, you know, how are things going? You know, what are your challenges? 95 percent of the time or more it was, it was sales.
[00:07:33] Dave: It was, we have a pro, we have a great product, you know, here’s all the bells and whistles and features. Um, and it really boiled down to the same, the same thing. Oftentimes there were technical founders, like you said, somebody who like was in an industry, saw a need, built a strong offering, but then when it came time to engage with a potential customer, they really leaned into what their strengths are, which is talking about features and technology and the APIs and, you know, integration and all that type of thing.
[00:08:02] Dave: And the customer’s eyes, you know, kind of glaze over and they go, okay, this sounds like the last, you know, sales pitch that I got. Right. Um, and I’ve been privy to many of those not so great sales presentations and sales demos. Yeah. And really what it boils down to is as a, as a founder, as an entrepreneur, you have to look at your product.
[00:08:22] Dave: You have to look at your, your customer and say, we need to figure out what our value proposition is here. And it’s not. All the features and functions and, you know, things like that. It’s, you know, three things I, in my book, I use the, the acronym COD. The first one is like, what is your capability? What do you actually do?
[00:08:40] Dave: Right. Um, and the key thing there is to talk about that in a simple way that your customers and prospects can understand, you know, not like using like in today’s world, all these, you know, AI, large language models, all that tech, all that technology that really the customer doesn’t care about, they care about what can you do.
[00:08:58] Dave: And that capability should relate to the next thing is, which is, Oh, which is, you know, outcomes. What are the outcomes that you’re your customers trying to achieve? Um, and really. In, in a B2B setting, that’s, you know, one of three things, or maybe multiple of these three things. It’s either increase revenue, reduce expenses, or reduce risk.
[00:09:18] Dave: That’s it. Like, that’s the only, that’s the only reason why companies spend money, unless you’re selling to government or something like that. Then there’s some, some reasons we’re not quite sure on, you know, why they’re buying things. Um, and then lastly, which is kind of The most difficult one to really think of and think through and kind of put pen to paper on is differentiators.
[00:09:38] Dave: Like what makes you different? Why should they talk to you? And why should they listen to you? Um, and why should they lean on you to solve their problem as opposed to all the other competitors out there in the marketplace? Um, And I think the other thing that a lot of founders don’t think about is one of the biggest competitors that they have when they’re talking to a business and trying to sell them a product is the biggest competitors.
[00:10:00] Dave: The company’s just not going to do anything, you know, they’re just going to keep doing what they’re doing today, which is maybe nothing, maybe using a fax machine or, you know, email or an Excel sheet. Right? Um, so really it’s building that value proposition out. Um, and really coming up with a succinct statement.
[00:10:18] Dave: When you talk to somebody who’s a prospect to say, this is what we actually do. And here’s how we help companies like you. And here’s why we’re unique in the marketplace.
[00:10:27] Patrick: I love it. And, and I think one of the things, so just going through each of those, those COD, uh, the capability piece, I think it’s actually really challenging to simplify down what you do into a one line, like this is who we are.
[00:10:43] Patrick: This is what we do in a simple way. And, uh, cause oftentimes, you know, you’ll ask somebody, so what do you do? And they, they, they talk for like 45 minutes on, you know, all of the things they do, and I’m like, I’m not very clear on, on what that is, right? Like when I think about what we’re doing at vital, you know, it’s.
[00:11:02] Patrick: Helping entrepreneurs minimize their taxes, master wealth and optimize their life, right? Like, so, right now there, there might be a better way to clarify that to go, well, what does that necessarily mean? But, uh, like I, I know I can say that to people and they go, well, that’s interesting. Tell me more, right?
[00:11:17] Patrick: Like we can, we can get into that. And so I, I think the simple part is, is pretty. Uh, pretty challenging and then I, I think there’s, I don’t know if you have any comments on that, but I’ll just stop there.
[00:11:29] Dave: Yeah, no, I think that that is difficult sometimes. And one of the things I would caution against, and I’ve seen this a few times is, you know, let’s say your company plays in a certain space.
[00:11:39] Dave: For example, my first business was in, um, enterprise software for insurance companies. And the category was, um, called policy administration systems, right? Not super exciting, but really great, really great business to be in. Insurance companies have all kinds of money to spend. Right. And what I saw, um, at one point many years ago is a company came out with what was pretty much a policy administration system, but they came up with another name for it.
[00:12:07] Dave: They call it like an underwriting work bench or something. Yeah. And what was interesting is to watch the market kind of look at that and go. What is that? I don’t know what that is, right? Like, they’re like, you know, the analogy that somebody came up with in the industry was like. Insurance companies, you know, they know how to, if they’re used to having horses, they buy horses, they feed horses, you know, they keep them in the barn.
[00:12:29] Dave: If you come to the table and say, Hey, I’ve got this zebra. They’re like, I don’t know what a zebra is. I don’t know how to feed that. What do I feed it? You know, where do I put it in a barn or in a field? And so like, you don’t want to get too fancy and give your product some, you know, new category or new name that people aren’t going to be familiar with.
[00:12:45] Dave: But I think when you’re talking about your capabilities, um, you definitely want to at least narrow that down. So when you talk to a prospect, you’re literally saying, here’s who this is for and here’s who it’s not for. Yeah. Like for example, you know, when I was in that policy administration business, it said, we said we have a policy administration platform for insurance companies of a certain size, and we’d give those metrics.
[00:13:08] Dave: when we talk to a company, they go, Hey, we’re smaller than that, or we’re bigger than that. It’s like, that’s a good thing. We want to set that filter and let people decide whether we’re for them. You know, early on, because one of the big things you can get into a lot of trouble with in business is, is selling to companies that you have no business selling to in the first place.
[00:13:26] Dave: And, and I’ve been in that situation, um, you know, I’ve had. Clients that we did a deal with that kept me up at night, you know, for six months straight and ended up being a complete nightmare. And really, when I think about why it happened, it’s because we didn’t define who our product was for and who it’s not for.
[00:13:43] Dave: Um, and if we had at the time a really good value proposition, we would have said to them, Hey, here’s what we do. And they would have said, that’s not us. And we said, okay, well, you know, here’s maybe some other companies you want to talk to, but we’re not, we’re not, we’re not a great fit.
[00:13:55] Patrick: Yeah, I love that. And then moving on to the, Oh, uh, for outcomes, I think that’s an important piece because oftentimes what we want to talk about as business owners is. All of the, the cool things we can do, but really what the client is concerned about is, is like, what does this mean for me? Right. And I can use my own examples and you can tell me if we’re, we’re off base with this, but like one of the things that we talk about is we save our average consulting client 280, 000 of income tax.
[00:14:22] Patrick: Right. Like, so people can go, Oh, okay. I, I can either decide that’s something I’m excited about or not. Right. And, uh, Uh, or I don’t have any, a little bit of what happens there is, you know, we, we are, uh, adjusting the expectations as to who we work with, right? Like. If I’m not even paying 290, 000 in income tax, you know, I’m obviously not an ideal client for the vital team.
[00:14:47] Patrick: So, uh, I think out outcomes is, uh, awfully important to focus on. Cause I think is, you know, it’s just easy to go to a, uh, business owner or a business website and they’re just talking all about themselves. Well, um, I think this is missing a little bit of the point. So I don’t know if you have anything to add to that, but, uh, I think that’s a fantastic distinction.
[00:15:08] Dave: Yeah, when you think about outcomes, I mean, talking about your value proposition, but even from the first meeting that you have with the prospect, right? I mean, I like to literally start off the meeting with here’s who we are. Here’s why we exist. And then the next thing is here’s. How we’ve helped companies like you, you know, we’ve, like you said, we’ve, we’ve helped them save, you know, on average, 280, 000 in income tax, you know, um, in a software business, maybe it’s, you know, we’ve increased their productivity in this area by X, um, being able to put a number on those things is really, really important, um, because it adds a lot of credibility and it gives them an idea of what they can expect, right?
[00:15:45] Dave: Hey, you know, we, we’ve kind of reduced this workflow from. Um, Two weeks to two days, you know, on average and what, what you’re going to find when you talk to a customer in terms of those outcomes and how you’ve helped companies like them is number one. It gives them insight that, you know, you have experience.
[00:16:04] Dave: So they’re like, Hey, that’s reducing our risk. These guys have done this before. Um, you know, number two. They kind of get this sense of, um, it allows them to open up a little bit to say, Hey, other people have this problem that we have. So they’re not really guarded in terms of like, Hey, I don’t want to tell these people that we have this terrible workflow that takes two weeks.
[00:16:23] Dave: And we really want to get it down in two days. We have no idea how to do that by telling them there’s all kinds of companies out there like you that have this same problem. And you’re just, you know, you’re just the next one that we can help here that lets them open up a little bit. And you’re kind of like holding up a mirror to them to say.
[00:16:40] Dave: You know, here’s the problems that we solve. And they go, we have those problems. Like, let’s talk.
[00:16:44] Patrick: Yeah, yeah. I love it. And then looking at the D the different differentiator. And I think you, you made a key distinction earlier talking about the insurance company. And it’s like, we deal with horses, right?
[00:16:55] Patrick: Then you bring a zebra into the equation and it’s like, well, we don’t know what to do with that. And so I’m curious how we, we reconcile a couple of those things. I’ve heard this and I like this thinking around, uh, giving somebody a new opportunity, right? Like this isn’t, this isn’t the same thing you’ve tried over and over again.
[00:17:12] Patrick: Like this is it. A new opportunity, but it can’t be too different, right? Like it can’t be a drastic, uh, change from what they’re used to. It needs to almost be evolutionary. So, uh, can you talk about that? And I’m also excited to get into the discussion around like inertia, you know, sometimes an object in motion stays in motion, you know, want to keep on that path or, uh, and I think, uh, getting clients to change off of their current path.
[00:17:37] Patrick: To do something new and different is, is a challenge. The
[00:17:39] Dave: key thing when you’re putting your differentiators together is, you know, it’s very easy to fall into the trap of like, Hey, what makes us different as a company? And a lot of the first things that come out of, you know, a founder’s mouth is, you know, we’ve got a ton of experience.
[00:17:55] Dave: We’ve been around for 25 years or we have great customer service. And it’s like. Well, that might be your opinion, but it’s not really factual and it’s not measurable. Right? I mean, that’s, that’s one of those things that when you look at it, um, if you can’t put a number on it and you can’t really, really look hard at that differentiator and say, is this actually different from our competitors?
[00:18:17] Dave: You know, then you shouldn’t really talk about it. Um, you know, as an example, when one of the easiest things you can do in terms of differentiators is if you’re in a space that, you know, there are a lot of different options for your product, like maybe your product is applicable to 20 different industries.
[00:18:36] Dave: Um, and I’ve worked with some, some clients on the, on the, on the consulting side where they say, yeah. Our product can work for any industry, which is fantastic. And I go, that’s actually not that great. Um, especially in terms of presenting it to your prospects, because I firmly believe that people like to buy from specialists, you know, not generalists.
[00:18:53] Dave: And by saying, look, we specialize in the, you know, insurance industry or the financial services industry or we specialize in working with credit unions or you know, Whatever your specialization is that alone I think is a differentiator in a lot of cases You know if there are a lot of competitors out there that do serve multiple verticals Um, you know, I I firmly believe that that’s a that’s an easy way is to think about What industries do we serve and should we serve here?
[00:19:21] Patrick: Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s, that’s great. And I remember hearing a mentor of mine talk about how they got, they were, they were on a panel with a few other people in their industry and going down the line, you know, the panelists were talking about the same thing. They were saying, Oh yeah, we serve all of these people.
[00:19:39] Patrick: And they were trying to make the net as broad as possible.
[00:19:42] Patrick: And he got to, uh, they got to him and he was like, I serve this micro niche of people, you know, and he’s talking to a group of a few hundred folks. And afterwards, you know, the people that identified with who needed his services, like came up to him and were like, Hey.
[00:20:00] Patrick: Let’s talk more about it where the generalist had nobody coming to talk to them after the discussion. And so I think that’s a, uh, a key piece there.
[00:20:08] Dave: Well, and what that leads to Patrick too, is when you do identify, this is our, this is our like micro targeting in terms of the customer. That’s an ideal fit for us is that as a founder, as an entrepreneur.
[00:20:22] Dave: You’re gonna spend a lot less time talking to people that you have no business talking to in the first place. Um, and one of our most scarce resources as, you know, entrepreneurs is our time. Um, and then the other. Side effect to that is as entrepreneurs, we also tend, and I’ve done this many times myself, um, we tend to get, you know, shiny object syndrome and, you know, we get somebody coming in the door that we haven’t, if we haven’t defined our target market, then when someone comes in the door, we go, Ooh, that could be interesting.
[00:20:52] Dave: Right. And it’s like, no, like just X, don’t talk, don’t talk to that company. It’s good. It’s going to distract you and it’s going to cause you all kinds of problems, but we go, Ooh, you know, let’s check that out. That’s interesting.
[00:21:01] Patrick: Yeah. Yeah. No, I love it. So, uh, Dave, just to recap, our value proposition boils down to the COD and it’s our capability, uh, our outcomes that we produce for the client and then our differentiators, um, anything else to add to value proposition before we move on to the next step?
[00:21:20] Dave: No, I think just to underscore Patrick, that this is, this is the first thing that you need to define. For your business, right? Because this goes into everything. This goes into all of your presentations to your prospects. This goes into your website marketing material. You know, this goes into all of your decks and all your presentations that you’re going to trade shows.
[00:21:38] Dave: This is like the foundation of the, of the house here, right? Yeah. Um, and so this is a really important step and it’s, it, it seems simple. Um, but it’s going to take, you know, it’s going to take some time. It’s going to take getting in a room, you know, with the team and a whiteboard and banging it out and going, is this differentiator unique?
[00:21:55] Dave: Uh, no. Okay. Um, let’s, let’s move on to the next one. So it’s a, it’s an exercise and frankly, the other thing that makes this difficult is it’s constantly evolving as your business evolves. And the other thing I’ve actually seen a few times is depending on. In certain businesses, who your actual end customer is, your value proposition tweak gets tweaked a little bit.
[00:22:16] Dave: Um, so for one set of customers or one market for us, for one product that you have, it may be different from another market. Um, you know, depending on who you’re actually selling it to, and that needs to resonate with the buyer.
[00:22:28] Patrick: Yeah. Yeah, no, I love this. Cause I just think about where we’re at internally and it’s been a Uh, absolutely an evolutionary process and it’s nice to work on it, set it aside, come back and look at it, you know, week or month later and go, Hmm, how does that feel? You know, you try it on and you’re like, ah, it’s close, but it’s not quite right. And you, you make some fine tuning adjustments.
[00:22:48] Dave: I think the one little tip too, is sometimes you get stuck in.
[00:22:51] Dave: You know, you go, well, we think this is, you know, when you do it, when you’re thinking about differentiators specifically, it’s like, well, you know, why do our clients buy from us? You know, why do they, why do they pick us and not the competition? Um, here’s a little hack, go ask them, you know, why, why did you actually choose us, um, what made us different from all the other people you talk to?
[00:23:11] Dave: And that’ll help to feed, you know, some of that information for your value prop.
[00:23:15] Patrick: Yeah, I love it. And I recently heard a, um, I can’t remember where I heard it. Coach consultant, something along those lines was, was ask. Uh, ask your clients, what are we doing well, right? And, and they will, they will give you the thing that they’re measuring you by.
[00:23:33] Patrick: Right. Uh, they’ll go, Hey, uh, you’re killing it at this thing. And, and that should be a thing you’d now start to focus on that client. Right. Like, okay, they’re, they’re clearly measuring me based on that. So I’m going to just be dialed in on. on that piece. So I, I think it’s, um, absolutely true. Like go figure out what your clients are saying they like about you and then do that thing.
[00:23:53] Patrick: So good. So what’s next after I develop my value proposition, what, what do I need to
[00:23:58] Dave: do? Yeah. So, I mean, we’ve kind of talked about this a little bit already, but the next step is figuring out, okay, now that we’ve defined our value proposition, who is it that we’re going to sell to? Who’s our target customer?
[00:24:11] Dave: What’s our ideal customer profile? Um, and essentially, again, you want to narrow that down while you’re building your value proposition. But then the key thing when you’re actually looking at your Target market is figuring out who you’re going to prioritize, right? Because again, maybe you’ve defined who you’re going to sell to.
[00:24:33] Dave: And there’s a thousand of those companies, you know, you can’t really, you know, you know, well put together, man, or go after all thousand. You need to figure out, okay, let’s, let’s come up with a hit list here. Who’s our top 50, what are the characteristics look like of the companies that we’re going to go after?
[00:24:50] Dave: And you really want to prioritize that based on. Clients you want to win, you know, um, clients that you have a good probability to win. Um, because we, you know, we all have limited resources. Um, and then we want to work with clients that we think we can actually add a lot of value for, because what’s going to happen, that it’s going to be a self fulfilling prophecy.
[00:25:09] Dave: You’re going to get a customer, you’re going to do a great job. That’s going to lead to more customers like them because, you know, good word travels fast.
[00:25:15] Patrick: Yeah, I love it. So I think this is an important thing to talk about and, and I, I’m, I’m going to marry sales and marketing together to some level, right?
[00:25:25] Patrick: Like marketing, we talked about website and our messaging and that type of thing. And people are going to see that and resonate with it. And then, you know, there’s, I’ll say there’s sort of a funnel process, right? And we’re going to take people through that. Um, but I love what you’re talking about here.
[00:25:40] Patrick: Cause I, I could see some listeners going a thousand, right? Like, yeah. I’m, I’m marketing to a hundred thousand people, right? Uh, trying to convert the 50 into sales. And, uh, I like the distinction that you’re making to go, no, no, no. We’re going to, we’re going to trim that number down. And then we’re going to, we’re really going to focus in on these, these top 50.
[00:26:01] Patrick: And is that where the sales process comes in? Like, okay, I’m going to go get, uh, make some sort of personal connection with these top 50 people, uh, get to know. The, the issues they’ve got going on the pain points and figure out how we can deliver value to their situation.
[00:26:21] Dave: Yeah, absolutely. And so really this parlays into two things.
[00:26:25] Dave: Number one being your actual sales process, which, you know, every company needs to have a defined set of steps that they use to start. Um, and then really one of the first steps of that process is going to be demand generation. So really figuring out who you want to go after and then going outbound and engaging with those, those prospects.
[00:26:49] Dave: And I think too many companies today, specifically, you know, when I talked to all those companies at that accelerator, they’re like, we’ve got a lot of ads running. We’ve got a lot of marketing out there. We’re going to trade shows. That’s great. You know, you definitely need to raise awareness for your company and your product But really what we need to do as you know founders and entrepreneurs that want to You know drive the business forward is we need to figure out who are those companies And proactively go out there and engage with them and A lot of times that the big mistake that I see made as well is okay.
[00:27:22] Dave: We put together a generic Um, outreach sequence and just blast it out there like that, that just doesn’t cut it. And, you know, I’ve talked to entrepreneurs before that I coach and, and they’re saying, well, we’re sending out all these email sequences and we sent out 100 and we’re, we’re maybe getting, you know, one meeting out of that.
[00:27:39] Dave: It’s like, okay, well, I’m pretty sure if I actually send out 10 to your hundred, but I, and I put, but first I do my research, I figure out. What’s this company up to? What are their priorities? You know, when you’re actually looking at, say, a publicly traded company, and you’re trying to penetrate that account, like, what are they talking about in their, you know, their 10K filings?
[00:28:00] Dave: You know, what are they struggling with? What are some of the areas of opportunity that they’re trying to go after? And what you’re going to find when you do that initial research, and you tie that to You know, your product, being able to help them achieve those outcomes. When you send an email, it’s personalized that actually, you know, revolves around that outcome.
[00:28:20] Dave: When you pick up the phone, I know crazy idea sometimes nowadays, but it actually still does work. Um, there’s really other, there’s some other great, you know, outreach, um, tools that you can use like a vidyard or something like that to send a personalized again, not some generic spammy thing, a personalized video email to somebody.
[00:28:38] Dave: I’ve, I recently have seen some really great. Um, you know, LinkedIn outreach, which is kind of video based as well. So somebody will send me a note and say, is that something you’re interested in? And then they’ll send me a personal video and saying, Hey, here’s a little bit more about us and how we can help, you know, somebody like you.
[00:28:53] Dave: And so there’s just so many of these channels that we can use. I think the big mistake that a lot of companies make now when they’re prospecting and, and trying to generate interest is they’re keeping it really generic. It’s not engaging. It’s the same old stuff. You’ve seen it, Patrick, you get emails probably all day long from people.
[00:29:10] Dave: It’s like, it’s not interesting, you know, but the, the best, you know, in my last business, I was literally thinking about a problem and somebody emailed me and said, Hey, one on your site. You know, I noticed this, it was a churn management solution. Hey, I noticed your cancellation workflows X, you know, we help companies like you increase or decrease their churn by this percentage.
[00:29:34] Dave: And if this is something you’re thinking about, let’s talk. And I go, yeah, this is something I’m thinking about. Right. So, you know, they actually did some research and they came to me with something that was relevant. And I think that’s key. And then from then on, it’s, it’s continued to deliver value throughout that prospecting life cycle.
[00:29:49] Dave: Um, be persistent. Um, I think I heard a stat before, it’s like, it takes, I think it’s seven to 12, um, outreach, um, you know, touch points to actually connect with the prospect. And, you know, the problem is most salespeople give up after three. Right. So it’s like, there’s a big disconnect there.
[00:30:09] Patrick: Yeah. Yeah. I love this.
[00:30:11] Patrick: There’s so many things that you’re touching on that I think are valuable. And the one thing that I’d like to highlight is just the. The personal connection that you’re making, right? Like even if I spend time understanding the client’s situation and send them a personalized email, now I can template, we’ll say 80 percent of that email, but I’m, I’m hitting some key points in there to, uh, address it to the client.
[00:30:35] Patrick: I also love the idea of. If somebody’s a prospect, it might actually be faster to turn on your camera and put together a three minute video talking through like, Hey, I saw these things. I think we can help with those. Uh, here’s how we’re going to do it. Here’s the next steps to connect with us. Right. Um, have a little bit of a hook, right?
[00:30:56] Patrick: Like here’s the problem, here’s the story. And then here’s the offer to like fix this thing I think is, is awfully important. And I think there’s some old school, uh, like here’s where I’ve people have gotten my attention before. Um, personalized things, right? Like if I get a handwritten note from somebody, I’m like, okay, Hey, this is somebody took a minute and they’re, they’re not just grinding out a thousand or a hundred thousand of these, you know, things, spamming me, hoping to get a response,
[00:31:25] Dave: right?
[00:31:25] Dave: This is what I have in my drawer here. I have.
[00:31:37] Dave: Um, you know, sometimes right now I’ll take a copy of my book and I think somebody would be a good fit to just read the book and maybe engage with me on a coaching basis. I’ll sign the book, write a little note in it, send it over to them. So that’s, I mean, nowadays that’s pretty unique, right? Yeah. You, you think it’s kind of a little bit ridiculous that that’s unique, but it is.
[00:31:57] Patrick: Right. Yeah, no, I, I totally agree. I, I have very much the same. I’ve got a stack of note cards and they’re the nice thing about a note card is you don’t have to write for days and days, right? Like I can write a few lines and it, the note cards filled up. And then I do, I also send out a ton of books. I just think if I read something that’s great and we’re having a conversation, I’m like.
[00:32:18] Patrick: I’m just going to send this your way because I think it, uh, is applicable. Um, and then I, that also piggybacks to like, people have gotten my attention before sending me, um, like a priority mail thing, right? They spent 10 bucks to send it to me, but. A hundred percent. I’m opening that thing and looking at it closely.
[00:32:39] Patrick: Cause it looks like important documentation that I need to do to address. And, uh, so that’s, that’s something to, I think is
[00:32:47] Dave: good. And I think a lot of, a lot of founders who aren’t in my book, you know, it’s a somewhat. It’s based on founders that I’ve worked with in the past of a founder who’s very uncomfortable with the concept of being in sales.
[00:33:01] Dave: Right? Yeah. Um, and so, you know, they kind of put the message out there a few times ago. Well, I guess that prospects not interested, right? I mean, everyone’s busy. Like we, you know, even myself, I get salespeople reaching out to me that, you know, I actually am interested in what they have to offer, but the ones that are persistent, the ones that kind of cut through the noise, like you said, you get a, you get a FedEx package in the, you know, on your desk, you’re like, what is this?
[00:33:27] Dave: I got to open this up, right? They’re cutting through the noise. I forget what it was, you know, I was in the advertising business for, you know, my, in my last company and when you look at the number of like advertising and marketing messages that the average person has come at them in a daily, on a daily basis, it’s like hundreds or I don’t know, maybe even thousands.
[00:33:45] Dave: It’s crazy. So you have to cut through that noise and kind of get through to that person so they can actually pay attention to what it is that you’re, uh, you’re proposing or what it is that your company’s offering.
[00:33:56] Patrick: Yeah. I love it. So we’ve talked through value proposition. Now we’ve talked through who we sell to and how we engage with, with those folks.
[00:34:04] Patrick: Um, what’s, what’s next in the sales process?
[00:34:06] Dave: Do you have a next step? Yeah. So when you think about, when I look at founders and entrepreneurs that are doing sales for their business,
[00:34:13] Dave: I think. You know, I know this because this was me, right? Like I was a I was an entrepreneur and until I started actually working with a sales coach that said, Look, we need to have a process for your business, you know, to actually go through each and every sale.
[00:34:29] Dave: We were very guilty of this. You know, we go in, we do a demo of our software client. The prospect would say, Great, let’s do it. And we’d send him a proposal. We, we skipped like three steps, uh, and sent them a proposal and shocker. It didn’t go anywhere. Most of the time, right? The proposal would sit on their desk and it wouldn’t move because what we didn’t do is we didn’t determine.
[00:34:53] Dave: How do you actually make these decisions in your company? Like who else has to be involved? What we didn’t do was say, how are you going to measure success on this product? On this project? Um, what’s the ROI? You know, if we put this software in place and you pay us 100, 000 a year. What are you expecting to get out of that?
[00:35:10] Dave: And let’s crunch those numbers so that when you who’s uh, say, uh, you know vp have to take it to the cfo To get sign off you actually have those numbers, right? We didn’t have a step in our process to Talk to the IT department to make sure that this is going to integrate with all of their other platforms and, and systems.
[00:35:30] Dave: Right. So when we actually, so we thought early on, when we do a demo and someone says, give me a proposal, we go, boom, here’s the proposal. We thought that was going to fast track a deal. Frankly, it made it probably go three times as slow as it should have, because we didn’t check all the boxes. The right thing to do is to say, you know, you get to, you get through a demo prospect says, this is amazing.
[00:35:51] Dave: Give me a proposal. You say, hold on, this is how we’re going to go ahead and get this thing done.
[00:35:57] Dave: this is how we’ve done many of these. We sell this software for a living. Um, you know, this is our step one, step two, step three, step four, to make sure that this actually happens in your company. And then the other thing you need to be very cognizant of when you’re, when you’re presenting that.
[00:36:13] Dave: Process to the prospect is they have their own process for buying, right? And quite often in my career i’d ask somebody. Okay, you know, I know you want this product and you know We want you to have it, of course But you know, how do these purchases typically get done at your company? And a lot of times they go, I don’t know, I’m not quite sure.
[00:36:33] Dave: So, you know, we’d have to kind of loop some other people in, do our own research. Um, and, and really a lot of times you’re the one that’s working hand in hand with that person, um, in the business. That’s actually going to like shepherd that deal, you know, forward.
[00:36:50] Dave: I actually just started reading a really great book yesterday.
[00:36:53] Dave: I can’t give a full, um, you know, thumbs up on it yet because I’m 15 pages in it’s called selling with, and it’s all about these types of deals where all you are as a salesperson is essentially, um, you know, a facilitator so that your internal champion at that client. Can actually get through all of their internal processes to pick your solution and to, to buy your product.
[00:37:19] Dave: So it’s, it’s been pretty interesting even already just to start, but I, and that, like, it just resonated with me right off the bat, because the deals that we had that were really successful, we had somebody in there who was like very credible in the company, um, that was working with us as the, as the champion, um, and the ones that didn’t.
[00:37:37] Dave: Really work all that great are the ones where we didn’t have that person. And that’s something in B2B that you really, really need to focus on. So yeah, more to come. I’ll probably write a little review on that book once I’m done.
[00:37:49] Patrick: I love it. I love it. I think the sales process is, uh, so important. And one of the things you touched on.
[00:37:56] Patrick: It’s so tempting, right? Like they’re excited. You just had this great meeting. They’re like, send me the proposal. It’s so tempting to be like, yeah, let’s do that. Right. Versus go because you want the sale. You want, you want it to get across the finish line as fast as possible versus go, Hey, let’s slow down for a second.
[00:38:13] Patrick: Here’s how we see this process working, um, effectively for, for organizations. Here’s the different pieces we need, and here’s why we need it. I’m just thinking about developing that process. You know, it, it sounds like to me, the way I would develop that is through. Uh, a number of failures, right? Uh, figure out why, you know, the sales process got stuck and we go, okay, let’s do a, let’s do a post mortem and go here, here’s all the stuff that, that, um, you know, went wrong.
[00:38:40] Patrick: And, and maybe we should start doing pre mortems, right? You know, like let’s figure out how this deal would die before we get going in the process. And we’re like, well, it could kill it. Well, um, you know, we’re not talking to the decision maker, you know, like all of those things could help us be. Uh, proactive in that process, but generally we, I tend to learn the most after things go sideways.
[00:39:01] Patrick: Uh, so yeah, I don’t know if you have exactly, no, it’s
[00:39:04] Dave: just like your value proposition. It’s, it’s something where you need to, you need to start somewhere and there’s, you know, very basic processes, you know, you’re going to do your demand generation to generate some opportunities, right? You’ll probably have some kind of demo or presentation if you’re doing, if you’re selling, you know, SAS or software or some kind of solution like that.
[00:39:24] Dave: You definitely have a stage where you’re going to actually develop the value proposition and the return on investment, and that’s generally something you’re going to do working hand in hand with the client. Um, you’re at some point going to put a proposal together. Um, I’m a big proponent of never, ever, and this is in my book too, never sending a proposal.
[00:39:43] Dave: Like you never want to just like lob it over the fence, send an email over. You always want to get on a, on a zoom or in person and say, Hey, Patrick, look, I’ve got this proposal. We worked through this ROI together, you know, here’s the proposal. Here’s the pricing, here’s the timeline. And then I’m looking you in the eyes and I might see you kind of like flinch when the price comes over.
[00:40:02] Dave: And then we go, Hey, let’s dig into that a little bit, or, you know. Um, getting that feedback is really, really key, um, during that, that review phase of the proposal before you formally actually present it to them, um, and then, you know, kind of closing it and getting the agreement and then what’s going to happen is as time goes on, you’re going to figure out, Hey, these, like you said, these things keep getting stuck with it, kind of budding in and, you know, putting a damper on things.
[00:40:28] Dave: You know, something in our process here so that we actually deal with that. Because the, the reality is you might waste a lot of time by putting that, maybe you put that right at the end of the process and it keeps coming in and killing these deals. You might wanna put that earlier on so you don’t waste your time.
[00:40:42] Dave: Right, right. Yeah. So you kinda learn as you go and it’ll constantly evolve.
[00:40:46] Patrick: Yeah, I love it. And, and one of the things I see about the value of building a sales process, and I remember, uh, a Harvard study from a number of years ago that said, it’s. It’s not the organizations that have the best sales people that have the most success on the selling side.
[00:41:02] Patrick: It’s the organizations that have the best sales process. And you, you take somebody, you train them up in the process, and then you give them a track to run on. So I assume this. The sales process now lets me go cool as a founder. I can now bring in somebody to run on this track. Um, and sure, I might have to, to train them up along the way, but, uh, it allows me to sort of leverage myself cause I’ve got, um, all the steps and checklist for, for running.
[00:41:29] Dave: You hit the nail on the head, Patrick. And, you know, oddly enough, right now I’m consulting with a company where they were ready to make their first big sales hire. You know, the founder was out there doing all the sales for the last. Several years. And then he said, look, I really want to focus on. You know, the operational side, I want to bring in a salesperson.
[00:41:47] Dave: Now they’re certainly going to work with them. And, you know, they kind of tapped us to say, help us hire a salesperson. And I said, well, that’s step two. You know, step one is we need to put all of the stuff that you and I just talked about for the last. You know, 30 minutes in play, we needed to figure out their value prop, their target market, their sales process, because bringing somebody in and telling them, here’s your laptop, go sell like that’s going to fail.
[00:42:12] Dave: Um, and I’ve seen a lot of, of, you know, entrepreneurial companies that are scaling in the right direction. And then they just hire someone they think is going to be a hotshot salesperson. Don’t give them any onboarding, any direction. It just doesn’t work. Right. So, um, this is. The other reason you put this together, like you said, is so that when you are scaling to the point where it’s time to bring one, two, three more salespeople in that you can train them on this process.
[00:42:38] Dave: You can measure it and, you know, they can actually go out and execute it. And, and obviously as they, as they’re out there, you might tweak it a little bit, but it’s a good foundation to, to get started.
[00:42:48] Patrick: I love it. And I think you just brought up a good business point in general, because I’ve seen businesses do this.
[00:42:53] Patrick: I’ve been guilty of it at times too. I hire a new person and I just hand them a laptop and I’m like, okay, you should have the skillset. I think we’ve all done this, right? Right. Instead of being like, okay, it doesn’t matter what your role is. Here’s the training process that we’re going to. Used to, you might have the foundational skills, but you don’t have the understanding of how our organization works to, um, you know, take and go be.
[00:43:17] Patrick: Our whole goal when we hire somebody is to put them in a position to thrive and you can’t thrive if you’re feeling like you’re having to make it up. So I think that’s, um, that’s fantastic. So I’d love to talk a minute about your book. So the delusional founder. Can you tell me how founders are delusional and how this ties with the sales process and get into that a little bit?
[00:43:37] Dave: Yeah, I think every founder has to be somewhat delusional, right, to actually take this crazy path in the first place. I think it’s, it’s having that, the right kind of delusion, right? The kind of delusion where somebody says. You know, Hey, wouldn’t it be safer just to get a job? And it’s like, okay, no, I’m, you know, I believe in this.
[00:43:54] Dave: I think I can, I think I can make this work, right? That’s the right type of delusion to actually get started in the first place. I think the wrong type of delusion is, you know, the old phrase from, uh, feel the dreams. You know, if you build it, they will come. A lot of people think that’s the case. They build this product and they think customers are going to bang the door down.
[00:44:12] Dave: And it’s just, it’s just not going to happen. And that’s the delusion that kills a lot of companies is that. They don’t know that they need to actually put all of this, you know, sales foundation in place to make this really work. Um, you know, like I said in the past, you know, um, I’ve been involved with three essentially technology companies.
[00:44:33] Dave: I’ve never coded a line of code in my life, nor will I ever. Um, and you know, I just. Got into sales kind of by accident, you know, like everybody else, um, most of the other people that are in the, in the sales, uh, sales arena, and a lot of founders who didn’t think they would get into sales. And then I realized how important it is, right.
[00:44:54] Dave: And kind of just doubled down on that and it made a huge, huge difference.
[00:44:58] Patrick: Yeah, no, I, I love this. And, and I think about just the. The value of revenue in a business, like the business does not function. If you don’t have revenue and revenue, right. It happens from sales. And if you don’t have a sales system and process in your organization, um, you’re going to be in trouble.
[00:45:18] Patrick: And even if it’s going well, like I think there’s always opportunity to, to fine tune it, to build the systems, to be able to scale it up. Cause, uh, that’s, you know, ultimately if we want to grow our business. That’s, that’s what we’re going to need to have happen because, you know, a, we just look at how limited the businesses, if all of the sales is limited to the founder, right?
[00:45:40] Patrick: That person only has so much time and energy. And if they’re doing anything outside of sales, like if we grew, I’ll say 30 percent one year, right? We can’t grow 30 percent another year with the exact same amount of activity. Because the, unless the, the entrepreneur is going out and selling bigger ticket products to a different market, you know, something along those lines, but, uh, you know, cause they only have so much time and energy and if they just keep repeating their, their work, uh, there, there’s going to be some limits there.
[00:46:08] Patrick: So
[00:46:08] Dave: for sure. And one of the big issues that a lot of companies have, and I know this cause we had it. You know, before is as somebody who’s, you know, a sales focused founder, you get very focused on the deals that you’re trying to close. Right? And then what you do is you forget about. All of the top of the funnel, you know, pipeline type activities.
[00:46:30] Dave: then what ends up happening is the revenue gets very lumpy in the business because you close a bunch of deals and then you, then you go great. You pop your head up and you go, Oh my God, my pipeline is completely empty. Um, and then you kind of scramble, do a bunch of prospecting, bring in some more deals.
[00:46:47] Dave: Focus on those deals and it just repeats itself, right? So, and in terms of scaling, you need to just, you need to have attention, you know, you need to have the discipline or you need to have the resources to focus on all of the different aspects, right? From prospecting through to closing and whether that means you’re hiring.
[00:47:05] Dave: Additional sales reps or whether that means you’re going to as a founder continue on doing the The kind of closing and you’re going to bring in maybe a an sdr or a sales development rep to do that You know top of funnel stuff. Um, you know, it’s just something to definitely keep in mind Yeah To to scale, you know on a linear basis you need to Really really pay attention to all those different stages at the same time, which is difficult
[00:47:31] Patrick: Yeah, Dave, I love that.
[00:47:33] Patrick: And here’s other things that I just think are so valuable. Unfortunately, I feel like in the marketplace, there’s people out there selling, uh, sales and coaching and some of those other things. And they haven’t been there and done that. And, and I just look at the fact that you’ve, uh, your exits have totaled over 200 million.
[00:47:52] Patrick: Uh, you, you’ve been through the ringer. You understand what it’s like to be an entrepreneur. You’re absolutely right. Uh, statistically speaking, just go get a W 2 job. You shouldn’t be out here in the marketplace because the failure rate’s just high. So Dave, anybody that’s out there that has a business needs to increase sales.
[00:48:09] Patrick: So they should go check out the book, the delusional founder that you’ve got available on Amazon. They can get the hard copy Kindle. Uh, that’s a fantastic way to go. And then also, can you tell us a little bit about your coaching and who, uh, again, an ideal client is, because I think we should, we should disqualify some of the people that, uh, don’t fit, uh, your ideal client.
[00:48:29] Patrick: So,
[00:48:30] Dave: yeah. So, you know, as you mentioned, Patrick, you know, I’ve, I’ve kind of gone down the entrepreneurial Path, you know, several times I’ve had three different, you know, companies that have all exited. And at this point in my career, really what gets me excited in the morning is working with entrepreneurs that are, you know, kind of at the stage that I was, you know, years ago to go, Hey, I’ve got this product and I really want to grow my revenue.
[00:48:53] Dave: Um, and really the sweet spot for me is companies that are in. Technology businesses that are in a B2B environment that are really looking to, you know, scale up to that 10 million, that kind of first 10 million in revenue. Um, and really want to look at kind of doubling down on, on their sales side of things.
[00:49:11] Patrick: Fantastic. And the best place for people to go is tech whale. com to connect with you. Is that right?
[00:49:16] Dave: Yeah, that’s my personal website. And like you said, I do a little bit of, uh, of coaching and training and consulting. Um, and yeah, I’d love to, uh, love to hear from anybody who’s maybe in the position that I was in that might need some help and, you know, check out the book and, uh, let me know whatever questions you’ve got.
[00:49:32] Dave: I’m here.
[00:49:32] Patrick: Fantastic. We’ll put links to all that in the show notes, uh, for people to, uh, check out your website and download, uh, or order the book. So, um, so Dave, I like to just recap, you know, I think about sales success, right? We, we’ve built a system in a process that includes our value proposition. We define who we sell to and have created a sales process.
[00:49:54] Patrick: We start doing those things, you know, we’re generating revenue and our business is growing. And, and that’s, that’s fun. That’s what we’re doing as entrepreneurs. That’s kind of the scoreboard. And I think about if we don’t do those things, we might have a great product, but we’re just frustrated. And, uh, At the end of the day, that, uh, uh, can lead us to, you know, quitting the business and going and doing something else.
[00:50:15] Patrick: And, uh, we don’t want to see that, you know, we, we just look at the entrepreneurs, the backbone of. Uh, the U S economy and, uh, you know, if they can continue to deliver value to, uh, the consumer, that’s, that’s how we, we grow. And, uh, so I just appreciate all of this wisdom and guidance today on, uh, uh, how to grow and develop our sales process.
[00:50:34] Dave: Yeah. Thanks, Patrick. I enjoyed
[00:50:35] Patrick: the, uh, the conversation here. Very good. Anything else before we wrap up that we didn’t touch on that we should have.
[00:50:42] Dave: No, I think like you said, um, you know, the key thing is here, there’s a lot of companies out there that do have a very good or great product. And unfortunately, a lot of those don’t, um, you know, get the, um, the results that they, that they deserve.
[00:50:58] Dave: And I think, um, you know, thinking hard about, about your sales and the ability to take your product to market in the, the way that’s going to resonate with your customers makes a huge difference. And, um, Um, you know, for me, nothing makes me more excited when you come in, talk to somebody who is in that position and you kind of show them the light, so to speak, and, and they implement, you know, this type of playbook and, and it, it yields really great results.
[00:51:21] Dave: So that’s exciting for me.
[00:51:23] Patrick: Wonderful. Dave Hanley, this has been fantastic. I appreciate all your time and wisdom. That’s a wrap on today’s episode. I hope you found incredible value in this conversation with Dave Hanley and that you’re walking away with actionable strategies to level up your sales process and grow your business.
[00:51:40] Patrick: If this episode resonated with you, I’d love for you to share it with someone who could benefit from these insights. Whether it’s a fellow entrepreneur, a business partner, or someone struggling to scale, this information could be the breakthrough they need. And remember, you’re a vital entrepreneur.
[00:51:54] Patrick: You’re vital because you’re the backbone of our economy, creating opportunities, driving growth, and making an impact. You’re vital to your family, creating abundance in every aspect of life. And you’re vital to me because you’re committed to growing your wealth, leading with purpose, and creating something truly great.
[00:52:09] Patrick: You’ve worked too hard to let the IRS be your biggest expense. Let’s change that together. Head to vitalstrategies. com forward slash tax to see how much you could be saving. City. Thank you for being a part of this community of vital entrepreneurs. I appreciate you. And I look forward to having you back here next time on the vital wealth strategies podcast, where we help entrepreneurs minimize their taxes, master wealth and optimize their lives until then keep taking action, keep building and keep creating something amazing.
[00:52:35] Patrick: And I’ll see you in the next episode.