077 | How to Instantly Build Trust and Close More Deals – Mary Schmid on the Neuroscience of Conversations

Patrick: [00:00:00] Have you ever walked away from a conversation feeling unheard or misunderstood, whether it’s in business, leadership, or even at home? The way we communicate can make or break relationships, deals and opportunities. But what if I told you there’s an actual science behind effective conversations, one that can help you build trust, close more deals, and lead with confidence?
Welcome to another episode of the Vital Wealth Strategies Podcast. I’m your host, Patrick Lonergan, and today we’re talking about how to transform your conversations to create deeper connections and better outcomes in your business. Joining me is Mary Schmid, a communications and leadership expert who specializes in the neuroscience of conversations.
She’s going to break down how the way we communicate affects trust, engagement, and decision making, and what you can do to improvement. We’ll talk about why some conversations instantly build rapport. Why others fall flat and how a few small shifts can help [00:01:00] connect better with clients, employees, and even the people in your personal life.
By the end of this episode, you’ll have practical tools to make your conversations more impactful, whether you’re leading a team, closing a deal, or just trying to be a better communicator. So stick around. This is one you won’t wanna miss before we dive in. If you’re an entrepreneur making over a million dollars a year and you’re not actively working to minimize your tax burden, you’re losing money.
That’s exactly what we help entrepreneurs with at Vital Strategies. Visit vital strategies.com/tax to see how much you could be saving. Let’s get into it. Mary Schmid, thank you so much for joining us here today. I’m excited about this conversation on many different levels. I think having great conversations.
And being effective in how we communicate is so important, not just in growing our businesses, but I think also in leading our teams. And I can even look at how I communicate at home with my, my wife and my daughters. Uh, this is all [00:02:00] very important. So thank you so much for joining us here today.
Mary: It’s my pleasure to be able to share some insights with you and your audience, so thank you for having me.
Patrick: Yeah. So Mary, you are a communication and leadership educator specializing in neuroscience of communications. I’ve read some interesting books on sort of the, the power of communication and how it can almost get our, our brain on autopilot. Uh, one of my favorites is. By, I believe it’s pronounced Robert Kini or Robert c Chaldini.
Robert Kini influenced the psychology or persuasion is the name of the book. And it was one of those first books that I read that really opened up my eyes to the power of communication and uh, how we can influence people. And the interesting thing is we need to influence people for the positive, not manipulate them to the negative.
But I think this, this discussion’s going to be, uh, fantastic. So. Mary, I’d like to talk through, um, just the problems that entrepreneurs are facing, right? They’re struggling with [00:03:00] communication, uh, and they’re leading to transactional communication versus like relational interactions. And, uh, you know, I, I think the relational piece is just, we, we all feel better when we’re, uh, connecting with somebody that’s, um.
Communicating with us relationally. And then there’s an internal, uh, feeling that the entrepreneur has that’s just frustrated. They’re unable to build trust and loyalty with clients. And then philosophically, it’s just why is it so hard to turn these professional interactions into, into lasting relationships?
So I, I’m looking forward to discussing your framework and how we can work through some of those problems. But before we do that, can you give us a little bit of your, your background on and why you’re, uh, positioned to, to help us take our communication to the next level?
Mary: Well, I, like many of your listeners, thought I was really good at communication.
I was an executive director for a physician group for many years, and I thought I was good because I answered the questions, told them what to do, listened, but I always had [00:04:00] good advice to give them. And one day I was at an event with my daughter and one of the women said to me, so what do you do? And my daughter piped up.
Patrick and she said she’s the world’s most expensive babysitter. She babysits the doctors. Oh, ouch. Ouch. But you know what? There was an element of truth in there and that what we, what I was taught about communication. It wasn’t enough because there’s a whole science behind that. So being the eternal research nerd that I am, but like what is, what is it that I don’t know?
Where can I find it out? And that’s when I discovered the neuroscience of conversation, which really is the brain science of what goes on when we’re in conversations. For you, for me, for your listeners, for what? Men, women. It’s, it’s true. It’s a base baseline if it’s true for all of us human beings. So I studied and I.
With a group of researchers, and I really worked this and so I not only understood the science, but I thought, oh my gosh, let’s make this available so everyone can [00:05:00] apply this in a way that’s gonna help build bridges to trust. And I think the biggest problem with that, with with conversations is I think that we think that like me, that we’re all really good at it.
We get into a conversation, we tell people, ask a few questions, we give them the answers, we tell them what to do, and we’re happy. Mm-hmm. What we miss is the impact that we’ve created in the other person, and that’s where the science comes in, is not only understanding ourselves, but understanding what we say and how we say it impacts the brain in a way that people will either open up and connect with us or they’ll shut down in protection.
And so then how can we use that? Whether we’re talking with teammates, whether with clients, potential clients, vendors, but most of ’em important. Patrick is the people that we love.
Patrick: Absolutely. This is wonderful. So I’m curious, have you developed some framework that we can look at to, to start to have these conversations in a, in an effective way?
Mary: Yeah, [00:06:00] absolutely. Because a framework is critical to know, because when you know your framework. You have it in the back of your mind and you don’t ever second guess, it avoids you from simply saying, so what are I gonna say when they say this? That’s not the point. The point is to understand the principles and the framework, which then frees you up to communicate in your way authentically, which means your own voice, your personality, and your way.
So yes, I created the conversational edge system, which is a really a, a framework to help us to look at what is this thing about conversations and, and what is it that I do? I. That I can do better to connect and engage and ultimately build trust. So it all starts out with the neuroscience of conversation.
What is that?
Patrick: Mm-hmm.
Mary: Well, it’s what goes on in our brain when we’re in conversations. So we will say things and do things that, that trigger our brain in a good way. I mean, if you think about a good conversation that you’ve had, it felt good. Well, what, what, what does that good mean? Well. [00:07:00] Back, uh, there was a flow and backwards and forwards, and we talked about things.
We might’ve laughed a little bit, shared stories or jokes, or maybe we even disagreed about it, but there was a flow. What? Mm-hmm. The eye doesn’t see, but the brain knows is this whole chemical reaction. And so what I feel safe and invited into a conversation. My brain is flooded with oxytocin, the social bonding chemical.
And why that is important is that that’s what allows me, well, that’s open. That allows me to think creatively, problem solve, talk in a way that’s feel connected, but that’s where trust lives. Trust gets generated by the feelings of when we have the oxytocin flowing, now consider a different kind of conversation, maybe one that didn’t go so well.
The opposite effect happened in your brain. You may have been in a conversation where the other person did all the talking and you didn’t get a word in edgewise. Right? We’ve all had that kind of conversation. Mm-hmm. They just wanted to tell all [00:08:00] about themselves. They didn’t really care about you. They didn’t seem really interested.
The brain respond to that by simply saying, this is not good. You feel threatened. And when the brain picks up these cues of being threatened, perceived threat. It floods the system with cortisol, the stress hormone. And what happens is when we get flooded with cortisol, we shut down in protection. But the interesting thing, Patrick, is they cannot coexist together.
It’s either or. So the re mm-hmm. Conversations that you lead have a predictable result. People either open up to connect with you or they shut down in protection.
Patrick: Yeah, this is so interesting. So I think about when somebody makes me feel that way. Mm-hmm. And, and I’m gonna put a label on it and I don’t know if this is the right label, but it, I.
I wanna call it charisma, right? Like that person, I, I just feel connected to them, even if it’s in a very short period of time. I’m like, wow, there’s something about that person that, uh, really, really drew [00:09:00] me in and I, I trusted them and I felt safe. And, uh, really, I. I think there’s probably so many factors that, that go into that.
Probably my verbal, nonverbal, you know, my presence in the conversation. All, all play in. Then we can see on the other side of that where exactly what you’re talking about. The person seems so focused on themselves, um, you know, maybe a little bit narcissist, right? Like they’re just talking about themselves and they’re not connecting with me at all.
And it’s like, I, I feel like I need to go take a shower after that conversation. I’m interested in. What is the, what is the foundational pieces to have that, that oxytocin, uh, be released in the person I’m having a conversation with to, to, so they’re, they’re feeling comfortable. We’re building that trust and that bond.
’cause what I really don’t want to do is walk into a conversation, uh, and hurt my ability to build trust with that person. Right? I want to connect with somebody, especially if I. Uh, if I’m coming from the approach of we, we [00:10:00] love and care for our neighbor, right? Uh, in general, right? Uh, I think that’s important.
So I’m excited to hear what you have to say about that.
Mary: So conversations that we lead, we know will cause chemical reaction, and so what do we need to know? The next piece we need to know in the framework is the three levels of conversation. Each one of them are necessary. We use each one of them, but they have a predictable impact on trust.
So the first level of conversation is an informational one. The purpose of that conversation, to give information to seek data, so it’s like I, I call it the q and a session, the question and answer. You ask a question, I give you the answer, Petro. We use that all the day in, in our lives. What time is the meeting?
Where is this? What’s the progress of this report? That’s fine. That’s all we need is a quick answer to a question, but imagine that you’re in a conversation with someone. A client, prospective client, uh, an employee, and all you do is ask a few [00:11:00] questions. So it sounds like, what’s going on here? Okay, what else?
What else? Okay, I know the answer. So this is what you need to do. So based on limited information and the questions that we want answered, not the questions that we’ve given them the space to answer, but they answer the questions that we want answered, we quickly jumped into, well, this is what you need to do.
But Patrick, it’s better than that is, and this is how you need to do it. Boom. Done. The impact of that, well, people don’t feel heard, let alone valued, let alone they’re not connected to you. ’cause they’ve not invited it to the conversation. And while is it quick and efficient, there’s no trust. So actually what’s going on in that is that there’s a lot of ox, a lot of corsol running through their system.
Patrick: Yes. It, it feels like very much a. Interrogation. Right. Uh, I’m just thinking of, you know, sitting in that, that, uh, like I’ve been arrested for something and the detective’s just drilling me with [00:12:00] questions and I’m like, this, this does, this feels like a high stress situation versus, uh, one where we’re, we’re building trust.
Mary: So high stress, like, or it feels like you’ve checked the check boxes of what you need to know, but what about me? Mm-hmm.
Patrick: Mm-hmm.
Mary: I didn’t have any space in the conversation. Well, now we can move on to the second level of conversation, which is what is called positional slash persuasive. You’re smarter than the average bear.
You’re a brilliant person, and you know that just asking questions isn’t gonna get you what you want. So you start the conversation and it’s more of a dialogue. You ask some questions to figure out who they are, what’s going on, and really try to understand the situation, but then it happens. And what’s that it all of a sudden, you know that you are the solution to the problem that they have and they’ve gotta work with you and you know what you’re gonna tell them and persuade them that’s the way that it is.
So we get some information [00:13:00] and we simply say, then it happens and we simply begin speaking and talking. We get a heat of dopamine and so I’ll come the charts and I’ll come the graphs and I’ll come the stories and I’ll come all this stuff to verify and. And paint a picture of why we’re the best to solve their problem.
And if, if it’s not us, then it’s our firm and their accolades. And it’s all these things that are not about me, but about you. And the more you talk, the better you feel because you get a heat of dopamine. And so you talk and talk and talk and talk. And when you’re finally done talking, you come up for air.
You close it off by simply say, uh, Patrick, you would agree this is the best solution. Right. You understand what I’m saying? Right. You don’t have any questions, do you? Well, first of all, you’ve created in that kind of conversation what I call a power imbalance. So you’re the expert, undoubtedly, and you do know so much more than I do, the person who’s sitting across from you, but you have positioned yourself as the expert, and I’m blessed in the expert, [00:14:00] not good.
Not good because it’s not a partnership and it feels very unequal. And on top of that, I am not in the presence of such an expert as yourself. I am not gonna say, I don’t understand, or I need more information. Mm-hmm. I simply don’t get this. No. ’cause I don’t wanna look stupid, I don’t wanna look misinformed.
’cause I’m a smart, intelligent person and I don’t wanna look like that. So what do I do? I nod my head, I go along to get along. And what do I do when I leave your office?
Patrick: You probably say to yourself, there’s no way I’m doing business with that person, right?
Mary: I’m not doing business with that person. No, no.
You chase them and you simply, they wonder why? What went wrong? Well, what went wrong is that they didn’t want to be an expert. That doesn’t, you’ve created that power differential. They don’t wanna be in a relationship where someone just tells them what to do all the time as human beings. Think about that.
What do you respond to when someone tells you This is what you have to do.
Patrick: I push against it. So [00:15:00] there’s, there’s a few things that, that are coming to mind. I, I love negotiating deals. Okay. And, and one of the things that I found in a negotiation is I get a choice. I can either choose to take the. I’ll call it the ego route and position myself, or I can choose to get a good deal and if I choose ego, I’m gonna feel really good, but I’m not gonna make any money in that transaction.
Versus if I flip it around and I take a, a position of, like you’re talking about with the level three is, uh, I approach with curiosity. I am a little. More kinesthetic in my approach. Uh, I’m a little slower in my speech. I’m letting that person sort of show their, their expertise and be able to, uh, maybe correct me on a few things along the way.
’cause it allows us to feel like peers versus, uh, like I’m, I’m coming in to sort of dominate this conversation [00:16:00] and. We end up feeling a lot better about that transaction. At the end of the day, both parties do. Uh, when, when somebody takes that, that that position. So I don’t know if you have any thoughts or comments on that, because I’ve got some more questions about this framework and how it can all fit together.
Does have
Mary: one comment and you’ve got it. You insert level three conversation, you insert some of the level three conversation. It’s not about winning or losing, that’s a competition. We’ll never win that. But it’s creating a partnership together. So you win and I went, I can help you, you can help me. And people respond to that.
Patrick: Yeah, and, and I just think about conversations in general when we approach with. Curiosity, validation. You know, I don’t necessarily need to agree with everything you’re saying, but I, I can want to understand more and I can validate the way you’re, you’re feeling about that thing you’re communicating to me.
I think it does a good job of building that, that level three connection that we’re, we’re seeking there, so, exactly.
Mary: Exactly.
Patrick: [00:17:00] So I think one thing that is interesting is I think we need all three levels of communication, and you can correct me if I’m, I’m wrong here, but I think there’s times to sort of show that, hey, I, I do know my.
My stuff, I know this well, right? Um, but I’m not going to bulldoze somebody with that information. It’s also good to, like, I need to get the facts and the figures and connect with people, um, on a, on a certain, on a certain level. But I, I personally like the approach of, let’s start off and understand, you understand your motivations.
Start with curiosity. You know, I can then. I, I’m almost looking at it in reverse order. Then I can start to sprinkle in some, a little bit of authority, uh, on some things. And then once I’ve. Built connection. Now I can go to the data and start asking the information because I feel like I’m at a point where you now trust me to give me the information.
[00:18:00] So I don’t know what your thoughts are on, on sort of working it in reverse order, but uh, you’ve got, that’s exactly it. So
Mary: you connect first and then once you understand me and my situation, how you present your expertise or potential solutions or what it is that you want to present to me, you frame it as it relates to me.
Hmm. You can solve the problem. Of course. So here, you know, I’ve, this is what you’ve told me, Patrick, so I’ve got a couple ideas. So you frame it up in terms of how it benefits to the person you ask permission to share. Of course, people are gonna say, well, yes, please, I, I’d like to hear what you have to say, and then you can share what it is that you need to say.
But you see it’s connected to what it is that they want, need or desire. That’s the magic. That’s not the magic. That’s the science behind when you do that. I am interested in what you have to say because now you’re sharing, you’re telling me, you’re sharing with me. You’re showing me not only do you care, but that you have the authority and the expertise, but you’re not doing it in a [00:19:00] way that’s pounding me and saying I’m the expert.
Right. You’re sharing it out of, um, kindness and generosity that we can meet together and I can help people respond to that. This
Patrick: is great.
Mary: Yeah.
Patrick: So how do I, how do I take these skills? ’cause it’s almost like any skill, right? I would love to be able to, uh, pick up your book, read it, and then have all of this like, downloaded into me as a part of how I interact and, and I start a conversation and I’m immediately doing it with excellence.
How do I go about practicing these skills? You know, like part of me thinks I, I can start at the grocery store interacting with the, uh, the person that you know is checking me out. Uh, I can then also take it home and use it. I can use it internally and make it a part of, you know, who I am and what I do, but how do I, how do I practice these things?
So they, they become a, a, a part of me because I, I think. Unfortunately, these aren’t natural skills. You know, I, I think a lot of times [00:20:00] some people have ’em, maybe that’s the charisma, but, uh, most people are, are missing this, this piece where they’re, they’re able to like really connect with somebody, uh, via conversation.
Mary: Well, you certainly can start it at the grocery store, and I think I’m the only one that goes to my grocery store that knows the checker outers and their whole story, because I simply say to them, you know, thanks for having me today. What’s going on for you? Sometimes they talk, sometimes they don’t. But it’s, again, it’s extending the olive branch of like, I’m interested in you and I wanna know more about you.
When we talk about doing that in a professional setting, one of the, one of the principles that I teach principle number one is that we need to invite them into the conversation and share the air. But how do we do that? I mean, those are words, right? How do we use this? In a way that’s gonna help us. The first thing is you have, you need to accept the responsibility and understand that you set the stage for the conversation.
You completely have that responsibility. So [00:21:00] how do you do it? You prepare, you prepare yourself. I call it the one minute drill. You’ve gotta get your body. Soul and mind in a situation where you can get your oxytocin flowing before you go and meet, meet with someone. So how do you do that? It’s pretty simple.
One minute drill. Take, turn off all distractions. We know that. Take one minute. Take a deep breath, breathe. Breathing, resets the nervous system. Cheapest, easiest, fastest, most effective way to calm. Once you’ve calmed yourself and simply say, okay, so this person is coming in, what will the conversation be about and what would I like the results to be?
Okay, now you’ve got clarity in your own mind. The third piece of it is the most important, and that is as they’re sitting across from you what’s going on in their world, what situation might they be in [00:22:00] and how do you. Want them to feel as a result of talking with you totally primes your brain, totally resets the cortisol that’s running through your system because you’re a busy person and, and we totally resets that.
So you then, when you come to, to be in front of that person, have a calm presence, why is a calm presence important? Because my brain. It takes one look at you. And in less than a second, I decide if you’re friend or foe. So make me a friend. And how do you do that? You’re calm, you’re present before you say a word.
Open posture. Yeah. Shoulders back. Huh? Hands in front of you. Look in their eyes. Don’t stare ’em down. I’d have to see the color of their eyes. Mm-hmm. And a smile, a warm, genuine smile. Not your fake, like, oh. So it’s so like, nice to be with you, but I, I’m happy that you’re here now. You have just triggered [00:23:00] their brain with oxytocin four or five times, so you get it going that way.
And the first words that come out of your mouth is not, how is the weather? Stop that noise. The first words are, yeah. I’m happy to see you. I’m glad we have time for this conversation. It sets the stage that you’re interested, that you’re self-assured, but that you’re calm, but you’re available. You want to have this conversation with them, and you do it.
It’s a lot of non-verbal energy kind of things that your brain picks up on. It’s amazing, isn’t it? Your brain picks up on all these little cues and goes like, oh, okay, well this is different. This is like, no one else has talked to me like this before. Okay, let’s, let’s go for it.
Patrick: Yeah. Yeah, I love it. And the thing I like about it is it’s, it’s different without being weird, right?
Like, I can say to somebody, I’m happy to see you. And like, I think about somebody saying that to me and it instantly makes my day. And, uh, we, we have a little thing that we talk about in our, our [00:24:00] family about being a day maker. You know, like go, go find a way to make somebody’s day, like in the little things.
Uh, just going back to the, the checkout line, just. Saying to that person who may have, you know, been dealing with grumpy people for the last 50 customers. I’m happy to see you with a smile on your face and genuinely mean it. Like you’re probably going to see a change in their state. They’re gonna perk up and be like, oh, well thank you.
You know? And, uh, then, then just inquiring about how their day’s going and, and just hearing more about it and just truly listening. Uh, I think that’s, um. Uh, fantastic way to, to go and connect with people. I love that. And I think if we just start there, like, if, if we just do this one thing of getting ourselves positioned for the conversation, take a minute, we breathe for a second, we think about what we want out of this conversation.
Versus just show up and, and start talking, uh, or [00:25:00] listening or not listening. And, uh, I, I think if we just do that one thing alone, we’re, we’re going to. Have an impact. People listening to us are going to see the difference in our conversation, uh, versus the other people that they’re, they’re talking through to throughout the day.
So I like Ika. You said it’s different
Mary: enough, but it’s not weird.
Patrick: Mm-hmm.
Mary: It’s not weird. It’s very normal kind of conversation. And it is different because no one else does that. No one else does that. It’s all about the weather and rapport building. Well, that can come later, but don’t get stuck in that.
But it’s all about this sincere desire. Coming with the words that you use, that you are interested and you wanna connect with them, you wanna keep what’s going on
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All right, back to the conversation.
So if we were to shift this to a, a business setting, right now I’m talking to a prospect and I am, um, I’m seeking to understand where they’re at, but I’m also trying to, you know, move the conversation forward to, um, you know, a business outcome. You know, is, is there, is there thoughts on, okay, how do we. How do we connect with this person on a level of, um, where I can understand their [00:27:00] situation, but also like move the conversation forward so we can get the outcomes that we we’re looking for in our business.
Mary: Yeah. And so I suggest that we, we create the agenda together. So we’re in the office now and, and, um, how’s your day go? What’s the best part of your day? Okay. We’ve, we’ve done the connection work and then it’s opening up and inviting you into the conversation by saying, so what is it that you would like to get from this conversation?
What is the outcome you’re looking for? What would be of value to you? Oh, okay. Now you know what they want, and then you can say to them, okay. Um, as I was preparing for our conversation, I had a couple ideas that I jotted down. Let me share them with you. You are gonna get this look of like surprise ’cause you’re not, you’ve shown them that you’re open to their ideas, but you’ve also shown that you’ve prepared and you’re willing to be transparent about what it is that you’re thinking.
And then you sort of look together and simply say, okay, so in this next hour that we have together, um, here’s, here’s a couple ideas of, of where we’re gonna go. So why don’t we start with if you’re comfortable, what’s most important to you? [00:28:00] First, you open the doors.
Patrick: So I, I think we, we start to outline the, the agenda and, and sometimes I’m thinking of, uh, often.
There’s scenarios where I’ve reached out to somebody to, uh, start the business conversation, right? Like, I’ve got a product or service that they’re, they’re looking for and or, or I think they need, would, would serve them well. And, and so I’ve got an agenda and I think it’s, I’m just thinking through this and it’s like.
Uh, hey Mary. Here’s a few things on, on my list that I’ve come prepared for to talk about today. Is there anything, and, and I’m just flipping the script a little bit because they don’t necessarily know what this conversation’s about, so it’s like, Hey, here’s the things on my agenda, but what do you wanna make sure that we cover today?
Bingo. Okay. Nothing. Fantastic. And we can, we can move forward. So, but I
Mary: also wanna point out to you that you self-corrected and rather than asking a close ended question, is there anything you flip the [00:29:00] script and said and said, what would you be interested in learning about? Here’s a couple ideas that I would like to share with you.
What about you? Open-ended questions and questions. This is, this is one of my favorite. It’s a question that you don’t have the answer for. And it opens the doors to simply say, well, that’s great. I, I, no, I think this is fine. This is fine Patrick. I’m, I’m interested in learning more about this or whatever.
But you give them the opportunity,
Patrick: I’m thinking through this conversation and they give me a few items that we can add to the agenda. I feel like that’s a fantastic opportunity for me to have them. Tell me more. Can you tell me more about that? Um. So I’m crystal clear. I, I’m approaching with curiosity on what it is they actually want to talk about.
’cause I could have in my mind, um, oh, they wanna go this route, but actually they want to, they wanna hit on something totally different. So, um, yeah, I don’t know if you have any thoughts on, you know, exploring the, you know, the items they give me, but I, I want to make sure that, [00:30:00] uh, you know, if I’m trying to deepen that connection that I’m, I’m not assuming anything and we’re, um.
Mary: So if they say, well, I would really, um, so they put something down like, okay, so I, I wanna explore this, and let’s say they were, use a word that’s a really general word I, I’m interested in. Mm-hmm. Um, this being, making me more productive.
Patrick: Yeah.
Mary: My first response would be, Hmm, productive. Like, what does productive mean to you?
Tell me about that. Now they just opened the door. This is what they’re looking for. But this is what it means. ’cause when I say the word productive, I have, uh, my own definition. You have your own definition. We call this double clicking. It’s like when you click on a mouse on your computer and you open up the file, there’s like, oh my gosh, there’s so much there.
The same thing happens when you ask a question. The brain is focused on that question. It has to answer it, it doesn’t like incompleteness, and so you’re gonna get so much more information by simply saying, so [00:31:00] what do you mean by that? What does that look like to you? Yeah. Oh, okay.
Patrick: I, I love this. So I’m, I’m thinking through, and this is an internal.
Uh, Patrick Lencioni came up with a book, uh, called The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, and it’s about, it’s about internal conversations, but I think this could also work out well with our clients to, when we’re thinking about a collaborative process. I. Being okay. Disagreeing on things and, and not, uh, you know, one of the, the dysfunctions is, uh, fear of conflict, right?
Like if I’m, if I’m afraid to bring conflict to the table, then we just, you know, there’s this sort of festering resentment that just gets drug around and then explodes at some point in time. And, um, so I think there’s opportunity to set a safe space for our, uh, clients, prospects. Business associates that we’re working with to, uh, to disagree with us and, and have a, um, an opportunity [00:32:00] to have constructive conversations.
Can you talk a little bit more how maybe that fits into Yeah, absolutely. I think,
Mary: um, constructive conversations that are conflictual where there’s different points of view can be most productive and most healthy. The problem is, many times when conflict arises, trust has not been established and without trust, I’m not gonna feel free to speak the truth.
And to own my part of it because I fear that, uh, you’re gonna, something bad will happen. You’ll fire me, you won’t like me. Um, so I just sort of go under the radar and try and make things work. And it doesn’t work. It doesn’t work ’cause it’s always there festering. So once you establish that, that sense of safety and that you’re open to hear other opinions, you’re open to different points of view.
I say as, as being. Learning how to be disagreeable without dis learning how to disagree without being disagreeable. Right. And so it’s simply, uh, it’s not so simple, but it, it is, it, it is more like along the lines of like, well, I hear this is, you paraphrase it, right? [00:33:00] I hear this is, is your Santa on things?
I understand it. I have a little bit different take on that. Let me share that. Boom. You’re not shoving them into being defensive by saying, well, you’re wrong, you’re stupid. You don’t understand. I hear you. I think I understand what you’re saying. Did I get it right? Yeah, yeah. You got it right, Patrick. Okay.
And I have a little another thought that’s a little different, like to share that with you. Yeah.
Patrick: One of the things I was thinking of is there’s times where I’d be in a negotiation, and let’s just use a real estate example where I, I set the, the standard up front that, hey, this is. This is going to be an opportunity for, we need to make a profit, but we also need to meet your needs as a seller.
And if we can’t do that, this, this doesn’t make any sense and we shouldn’t do the deal. Uh, so sometimes we’ll get to that point in the conversation where I’ll have to come back to that conversation and be like, look, I’m having a hard time figuring out how I can make a profit with [00:34:00] this, you know, point that we’re negotiating on.
Do you have any thoughts on that, how we can resolve that? And, and oftentimes just putting it back on them saying, Hey, there’s. I’m seeing a point where we’re not coming together. Do you have any feedback? And, uh, it’s interesting at times how, I don’t wanna say they’ll start negotiating against themselves, but they do wanna get the deal done.
And so they’ll go, oh, I see that. I see your perspective. I see you’re trying to help me meet my needs, but we’re, we’re not being able to come together. What if we try this different way? So. Um, yeah, I dunno if you have any thoughts on that, but, uh, I, I’ve found that an effective tool to, um, not make it confrontational, like I’m hitting him over the head with my terms, and if they don’t take it, then you know, we’re just not doing the deal.
Mary: And in those terms, you’re asking them to help you to solve the problem. I mean, if in the end you get the deal done, you both win. Right. Yeah, of course you do. This is what we want done, but there’s a roadblock here, and I, [00:35:00] I’m interested to hear what your perspective is about how to get through this. Now, you put it and you’ve asked the question.
Now you’ve got them thinking their brain has to answer the question, and sometimes because it’s a safe place to do it, they may come up with ideas that you haven’t thought about. And that’s the beauty of, of a level three conversation is that sometimes it sort of goes down a different road than what we expected.
But here’s a mat, here’s a, here’s, here’s the beauty of it. I take my idea. You take your idea, Patrick. We put ’em together. Mm-hmm. And, and we can create something new. Yeah. That neither one of us thought about before and it just might work.
Patrick: Yep. I love it. I love it. So Mary, we’ve talked through the framework of, I’ll say, effective conversations.
Is there anything else we need to touch on before we start thinking about, you know, how this can apply to our businesses?
Mary: Some of the most important, the critical pieces of the framework is that, is you understand how I respond in conversations. You [00:36:00] understand the level of conversation that you lead at.
We’ll set the stage for whether I can trust you or not. And once we’re in the conversation, that whole idea of working in partnership rather than telling people what to do creates the best results.
Patrick: Alright, this is wonderful. So now I’d like to think about this from the context of, uh, how this can start to change my business when I’m, I’m.
Implementing these strategies, can you give us maybe a, a case study, uh, with, we’ll say a financial professional that you’ve worked with and, and how that’s, uh, been able to change the course of their business?
Mary: I’d be happy to. So I’m thinking about Matt, who’s a client of mine and he really did like his spreadsheets.
But more, he liked his software. Oh, his software was so beautiful. If I did this, we could do this, I could do this, I could do that. And so he was having a conversation with Ally, one of his clients who was thinking about retirement. And the question she came to him with was, well, do I have enough [00:37:00] money to retire?
Well, he took off on that question is and. But oh my gosh, I have such good news to tell her because she’s close to it. She’s all set up and he had a plethora of information about charts and graphs, and this is, we could do this, but you could do this, you could do this. And so he was explaining her all of this to her and he’s feeling whitey good.
Like this is a really good conversation. Ellie, his client looked at him and she said, Matt, this is all fine and dandy, but what will I do when I retire?
Patrick: Mm-hmm.
Mary: At that point, he realized that, you know, the facts and figures are important as as we’re building the plan and making the decisions. But what’s even more important is that if we lead with that and don’t understand the transition that she’s going through and the questions that she has and what that means to her, it’s not gonna work.
Next meeting. He, um. We, we, we’d have some conversations about the next meeting. He opened up the conversation and said, Ellie, you know, I think I missed an important point. You know, we’ve talked about a lot of the tax and [00:38:00] figures, but I have a question for you. Tell me if you would, what does retirement look like to you?
Oh my God. One simple question opened up the doors and she told him exactly. Now he was a. Advisor who had two twins that were six and one that was nice. So he’s thinking about the beach, you know, and the cocktail and the typical kind of stereotype that we think about retirement. But he opened it up and what she told was everything that he needed to know.
She wanted to have her grandkids over anytime she wanted to. She wanted to attend to her garden, and that when it was not just on the weekend. But anytime that she wanted to. But you know what her real dream was to buy that rod riding lawnmower. She had an acre lot that she wanted to. I know. So it’s this, this so simple, but it’s so beautiful and so this is exactly what you wanted to do.
So when Matt got that idea, you see how easy it is and our job is to connect the dots. So we got this whole picture, what it looks like for her. Now we can connect the dots to how we could help her to plan that. [00:39:00] And it comes down to saying, because this is important to you. Here’s some things that we can look at.
Yeah, because you said this was what you really wanted.
Patrick: I think one thing that I’d like to highlight is we’re fortunate in that example where the client spoke up and, and she said, what am I going to do in retirement? Because oftentimes I think what happens is the client’s either not aware. Of the, the underlying feelings or concerns, or they don’t express them and they leave and they feel.
Like, uh, I’m uneasy. I don’t know. I’m unsure. They don’t know me. And so they don’t take action. And we get frustrated by that outcome. We’re like, why is the client not doing the thing? I showed them it’s a math problem. Why are they just take action? Right? Uh, and we can see that in any sales environment,
Mary: Annie, right?
Patrick: Where if we stop and we connect with the client and fully understand, you know, we, we [00:40:00] seek to understand their, their situation. Fully their, their hopes, their dreams, their concerns. Then it makes the. I’ll call it the sales process or the implementation process or whatever we want to call it, process easier to execute on.
’cause the client’s like, okay, cool, you understand me? I trust you. We can move this process forward. Versus it feeling very transactional. Exactly. So you just move from a
Mary: transactional to a transformational where I get to express these things. And you know what’s so beautiful about that is I express these things.
I the client sitting across from the table at you. Sometimes, this is the first time I’ve ever said this to anybody, and sometimes when I hear myself say these things, I get this like, aha. So not only do you get more information, it helps me to articulate and express, but we need to take the lead and make that okay by the kinds of questions that we ask.
Patrick: Yeah, yeah. This is great. [00:41:00] So. I can see, especially financial advisory, you know, us leading with facts and figures like, Hey, look, we can build a better financial mousetrap than, you know, what you’re currently doing are, what other common pitfalls do you see in, I’ll just say communication in general, client communication, um, that either advisors or professionals are, are.
Missing when they’re, they’re having these conversations with, um, in, in the business environment.
Mary: In the business environment, it’s all the same, is that we lead with telling people what to do, persuading people that we’re the best person to do that for them, whether we’re, um, whether we’re in real estate, whether we’re in it, whether we are in healthcare.
We tell people what to do and then we wonder why they don’t do it. And then we wonder why, like I was an expensive babysitter telling people the same thing over and over and over again. That’s the biggest pitfall I think that any one of us as human beings face, because we don’t know that there’s so much more to it, [00:42:00] let alone how can we easily practice this in a way that not only feels good to the person that we’re talking with, but it feels good for us.
Because the more that we do it, the more we get rewired, the more we do it. So I think that’s that whole piece about, you know, we’re thinking that we need to tell people and persuade people, motivate people. This is what you need to do. We don’t motivate people, Patrick. We don’t change people. But what we can do is guide the conversation so that we can look at the options.
We can look at what happens if this go, what happens if this is true? What happens if that’s true? What? What will you think? What will you feel? Where would you like to be? We help paint the picture and they feel if we do it, um. By asking these open questions that we don’t have the answer for, they’ll fill in the details.
Patrick: That’s so good. And, and Mary, how about I think we, in the business environment in general, we’re going to have to have difficult conversations, right? Uh, there’s gonna be a frustrated client, there’s going to be a frustrated team member. Um, [00:43:00] and I, I can clearly see how these, these tools will, will help us.
But do you have any thoughts or. Pointers for, for how to take these difficult conversations and, and utilize the framework there.
Mary: So you start with the framework of preparing yourself and how do you want this person to feel as a result of the conversation that you had. And if it’s a difficult conversation, it’s even more important.
The reason that’s difficult is we tell ourselves it’s gonna be difficult. I say it’s not a difficult conversation is one where we have to, where we have the opportunity, Patrick, to listen to other ideas and maybe be influenced. So we start the conversation by being really clear about what the conversation is about and why we’re having it set the framework.
This is why we’re having a conversation. This is what we’re talking about. Um, this is give us one specific example. This is what I noticed that wasn’t quite working. That’s just my noticing. But I’d like to understand from you what were you thinking and what was really going on to get their side of the story.[00:44:00]
And then you can add to them simply saying, okay, so we both agree that. Or disagree that, that this seemed to be the problem at the point in time. So what was it? That is a point of contingent. Is there a way, Patrick, for you and I to meet in the middle of the road? Because ultimately when you’re the CEO or when you’re the boss, you set the standards.
And when you set the standards that simply say, well, I’m gonna ignore this and hope it’ll go away. It’s not gonna go away. It’s gonna get worse and worse and worse. So you take the lead, you address it. And you work with the person simply says, so what options do you see to address this? What will you, what will you do differently?
And then the next question is, how can I support you to do that? You’re not taking responsibility for them, but you’re saying You need to tell me what you’re gonna be doing differently and I can perhaps add to that. Yeah, and I will be a support to you, but I’m not taking on your problems. There’s a really fine distinction.
’cause I think lots of times leaders wanna take the problem out, I’ll fix it and I’ll make it better. No, no, no, no.
Patrick: Mm-hmm.
Mary: We [00:45:00] help to support them by getting really clear about what’s the behavior, what’s the situation that’s just not working. And then we build a plan and then we say, this is how we’re gonna monitor it.
And we add in, like, if I see this happening again, how would you like me to approach you to give you this feedback?
Patrick: Yeah. Yeah. I just see this marrying so nicely to, uh, this framework called the entrepreneur operating system, EOS inside of Traction, because I, I think about, there’s, there’s rocks. There’s an L 10 meeting where I.
Uh, you outline who’s responsible for what by when. And so, you know, the, those rocks have, uh, a deadline and there’s outcomes that need to happen. And, and I think about how busy we are in our organizations and if we can have these conversations from a, like coaching perspective, like, Hey, I want to help you get better.
I wanna attack this, this issue, not you as a person. ’cause I think that’s, you know, we, we see this with entrepreneurs, you know, they. [00:46:00] They sort of leave people alone till something sideways. And then they’re like, you know, are on ’em, on like, Hey, you’re not doing this job very well. And, uh, uh, it’s not very effective leadership versus like coaching along the way.
And I think EOS helps you do that. And it’s like, Hey, here’s something I had noticed about the way you’re handling this, this issue. And, um, you know, if you consider this, you know, and I think again, taking their feedback, identifying the issue, going, Hey, this is what I’m seeing. What are you seeing? And then, uh, then start to problem solve, I think is, um, a fantastic way to approach it, uh, where you’re, you’re coaching them along the way versus it being, you know, I’ll say more of an attack on the person not not doing their job.
Mary: Exactly. And I love, I’ve worked with several firms. I. That this partnered with the EOS system that they were implemented, and so the right person on the right seat. Okay, so let’s dig a little deeper. How do we figure that out and how do we then, when we get the right person on the right seat, connect them to the bigger vision and what their contribution is to the company.
But I really like what you say, and [00:47:00] that is we need to take a separate out. Is it a process, system issue versus a people? Mm-hmm. And I always say, let’s start with a process first. Let’s look at the process and the system that we have set up or maybe not set up. Mm-hmm. That, that lead us to conclude that it’s a people problem.
Because, you know, I, I really believe people don’t intentionally not do their job.
Patrick: And I just think about, there’s a book by Jocko Willick called Extreme Ownership. And if, if I think about my employees success and I’m taking the extreme ownership mindset, I. I need to own the fact that I haven’t trained and developed and provided the tools to them, you know, to, to get there.
Now, there could be a point where I have done all those things and it’s just not the right person in the right seat, and that’s okay. Now we can make that change, but oftentimes there’s a lot of work to be done on, you know, my end helping support that person, um, before we we come to that conclusion that [00:48:00] they’re not the right person in the right seat.
So I think that’s, uh. Fantastic observation that we can create the system and the structure and probably start from that point of view versus the, the person point of view. So
Mary: I just had a conversation with this. This is CEO yesterday or, uh, last week. And they were talking about how, how this person isn’t doing this and they’re not doing this and not doing that.
And I listened for a little bit and I looked at them and I said, and what you and what have you as CEO and ops leaders, what have the two of you done to help this person learn? And figure out where they fitted, how they fit into the organization. Do you expect them to learn this by osmosis? And they kind of laughed and they go, no, that’s the truth.
That’s the truth. We expected them to learn by osmosis, and when they didn’t learn by osmosis, then we blamed them. And I said, and there’s an opportunity to turn that around. It’s gonna take some work and effort. Like I said to the ceo, it’s gonna take work on your part, but you can turn this around. Mm-hmm.
Patrick: Yeah. Yeah. I [00:49:00] love it. Yeah. I, I think we, we can all be guilty of like handing somebody their computer and being like, all right, you know, you, you’ve got a base level of skills. Hopefully you’ll pick up how we do things around here versus, you know, clearly communicating.
Mary: And the person then that tells how things are operating around here is not exactly the person you want them to be telling how things really operate.
Patrick: Right? Absolutely, absolutely. All right, Mary, this has been fantastic. Uh, we, we’ve covered so much ground on the. You know, neuroscience behind effective communication and, and how to, uh, deploy some of these, these strategies. So I, I appreciate that. Um, if people want to connect with you, what is the, the best way for, for them to, to learn more and to look at, uh, what it looks like to engage?
Mary: So we have a special, special download for the people in your audience that are listening to you, and they can get that@marySchmid.com slash. Vs. For [00:50:00] vital statistics and that will be in the show notes. I’m always on LinkedIn and I’m always happy to have a conversation. If someone gets stuck with something and they want to do a quick, I’m always happy because you know, the more people that I can, I’m an educator, right?
I’m a teacher. The more people that that I can teach and give you, we can’t here. And a hint there, the better you’re gonna be, the better your clients will be, and the better, ultimately the whole world will be. Now, that’s kind of a big goal, is to change the conversation of the whole world, but we start with one person at a time.
One person, one conversation.
Patrick: Yeah. Love. Very good. And so Mary, I appreciate that offer and that’s Mary Schmid, S-C-H-M-I d.com/vs. And we’ll make sure there’s a link to that in this show notes. Perfect. Uh, people can, uh, get the, the resources that you’ve, uh, provided just for our listeners. That’s, uh, that’s fantastic.
And I also just encourage him. Uh, all the listeners to go to mary schmid.com and just check out our website. There’s a number of resources there. Check out her book. Uh, it’s fantastic, you know, just outlining the, the value of these conversations [00:51:00] and how they can move our business forward. Uh, we’re, we’re very much believers in.
Uh, who not. How so? I, it’s my encouragement to, uh, go connect with Mary and figure out how to work together to implement these strategies versus, uh, you sort of struggling through it on your own. The book’s great. It’s a great resource, uh, but I think having somebody walk you through, uh, how to execute on these things and just the value it can drive to your, your organization.
I, I think if I added one new client a year. You know, that I would’ve lost. Uh, it’s not costing me any more time. It’s not costing me any more marketing dollars. Uh, it’s just clearly communicating with people. And same thing on the team side of things. If I clearly am communicating with my team, I’m, uh, I’ve got more engaged workforce, less turnover, more productivity.
Uh, again, these don’t cost. Uh. It’s so expensive to, to hire new people and train and develop. And so if I can keep and maintain my current team and uh, have a high producing, high functioning [00:52:00] team, uh, that’s better. All while I’m bringing in more clients. Like it just sounds like win all the way around. So,
Mary: and the, the real winner is that, is you because you feel good.
Yeah. Having these conversations, like I say, you could have these conversations all day long because you’re not taking responsibility for the outcome you’re sharing. The responsibility because we’re working together.
Patrick: I love it. Mary, thank you so much. I appreciate all your time today. That’s a wrap on today’s episode.
I want to thank you for tuning in and spending this time with us. I hope you found a ton of value in this conversation with Mary and that you’re walking away with new insights on how to improve your communication, whether it’s with clients, your team, or even in your personal life. If you enjoyed this episode, I’d love for you to share it with someone who could benefit from it.
These are the kinds of conversation that can truly make a difference, and you never know who might need to hear it. And of course, be sure to come back next week for another episode packed with strategies to help you build your wealth and grow your business. And before we go, I have one more thing for [00:53:00] you.
You’ve worked too hard to let the IRS be your biggest expense. Let’s change that together. Head to vital strategies.com/tax to see how much you could be saving. And remember, you’re a vital entrepreneur. You’re vital because you’re the backbone of our economy, creating opportunities, driving growth, and making an impact.
You’re vital to your family, creating abundance in every aspect of life, and you’re vital to me because you’re committed to growing your wealth, leading with purpose, and creating something truly great. Thank you for being a part of this incredible community of vital entrepreneurs. I appreciate you and I look forward to having you back here next time on the Vital Wealth Strategies Podcast, where we help entrepreneurs minimize their taxes, master wealth, and optimize their lives.