124 | Designed to Last: Why Most Entrepreneurs Take the Wrong Risks at the Wrong Time

What if the biggest risk in your business right now isn’t taking too much risk, but taking the wrong kind at the wrong time? Welcome back to another episode of the Vital Wealth Strategies Podcast. I’m your host, Patrick Lonnergan, and today we’re diving into part three of our design last series. I’m excited to be back here with Michael O’Keefe.
In the first two episodes, we talked about financial health and strategic health, getting your numbers right and your structure aligned. But even when both of those are in place, there’s still a question that determines your long-term outcome. Are you taking the right risks at the right time? In this episode, we’re unpacking something every entrepreneur feels, but few can clearly define how risks should evolve as your business grows.
Because what we see time and time again is entrepreneurs either going all the way when they should be protecting or playing it safe, when they should be leaning in, and that misalignment doesn’t always lead to failure overnight. More often it creates an invisible ceiling or cost you years of momentum.
So today we’re going to walk through the four stages, [00:01:00] build, protect, multiply, and legacy, and give you a clear framework for how to think about risk in each one of those phases. If you’ve ever felt that tension between growth and security, or wondered if you’re making the right moves with your business and your wealth, this episode is going to bring a lot of clarity.
And before we jump in, if you wanna go deeper on the tools, frameworks, and strategies we use with our clients every day, head over to vital wealth.com/resources. That’s where we’ve built out a full vault of tax strategy and wealth building resources to help you actually apply what we talk about here.
Again, that’s vital wealth.com/resources. And if you get value from today’s episode, make sure to leave us a review. It helps us reach more entrepreneurs who are trying to build something that actually lasts. Alright, let’s get into it.
Michael: All right Welcome back to Design to Last In episode one we’ve laid the foundation on what it actually takes to build a business that works not just when that generates revenue but one that’s actually structured to last We broke that down into three core pillars [00:02:00] profitability clean financial reporting and a clean cash management strategy Uh then in episode two we shifted the lens and we talked about the four stages of uh
Michael: competence and what it means to evolve from being the operator inside your business and becoming the architect of it And so in today’s conversation where we’re going um we’re going to dive into the different stages of risk that an entrepreneur um will encounter over the lifelong journey Um and uh I’m really
Patrick: I’m really excited. Do it.
Michael: Um pat happy to be back
Patrick: Yeah. Thank you, Michael. This is, uh, this is going to be a fun conversation because we, we get into a lot of these things with our, our entrepreneurs, and they, they, they’re typically facing some, uh, a whole host of, of problems. You know, when we think about, uh, externally, they’re trying to figure out, you know, how to grow the business and maintain stability.
Patrick: They’re, they’re thinking about investing in the business versus outside of it liquidity versus like, you know, how do [00:03:00] I, how do I build this asset? And there’s, there’s always new opportunities and how do I stay focused? Um, but they’re really lacking a clear framework for how, how risk should change over time.
Patrick: Um, oftentimes they’re taking too much risk at the wrong time or avoiding risk when they should lean in or get distracted by new opportunities, or they’re just failing to protect this thing that they’ve built. It’s, it’s built on, something other than a, a solid foundation. And then, then there’s these internal problems, right?
Patrick: They’re, they’re feeling like, man, what is, what is the right next move? How do I manage this tension between growth and safety? And then there’s also the concern about, uh, how do I, how do I like preserve this thing that I’ve built? Uh, you know, I’ve got a lot of people that depend on it now, not just my family, but uh, my employees and their families.
Patrick: And, uh, just the, the excitement also about opportunities, but unsure what to pursue. You know, there’s, there’s so many opportunities, especially when you start, uh, accumulating some real wealth that, uh, start to get your attention. And then there’s [00:04:00] just fear of making decisions that they’ll regret later. So, um, and, and there’s this constant internal question of, am I making the right decisions with what I’ve built?
Patrick: Um. And then philosophically, um, it should not be unclear, but it is for entrepreneurs who, um, have, have taken the risk. They’ve built something valuable, they’ve created momentum, uh, but they’re left guessing on how to protect it, grow it, multiply it, sustain it. And so, uh, risk shouldn’t feel random. Uh, and so we’re gonna get into that discussion today.
Patrick: It should be aligned and intentional. And, um, what we find with, with capable entrepreneurs is sometimes they stall because they get conservative too early or they lose wealth because they stay aggressive too long. So we’re gonna talk about how to, uh, unpack all those things today. So I’m, I’m really excited about this conversation.
Michael: Awesome Um I’m super excited Let’s get right into it and to just kind of set the stage I think it would I think it would help to go [00:05:00] through and just outline the four stages that we’ll walk through today And that’s step one is the build phase and step two protect step three multiply and step four legacy So why don’t we get right into stage one build So everyone starts here and it can be an exciting part of the journey but it can also be scary sometimes So Pat can you walk us through um the build stage of risk
Patrick: Yeah. Yeah. So this is, this is interesting, and I think we should maybe start like, at, uh, step, uh, zero, you know, and think about who should, who should enter into this entrepreneurial journey? ’cause as, as advisors, I, I think in good conscious, if, if I’m making a, a, a decision for like, helping somebody make a decision, it’s don’t become an entrepreneur.
Patrick: Uh, statistically speaking, this is not a path you should come down. Uh, you’re probably better off from a financial point of view to go get a W2 job and just, uh, uh, start [00:06:00] spending less than you earn, put some money aside and your, your, eventually your financial security will be taken care of. Now this conversation and this episode, and this entire podcast is not for the W2, it is for the people that have decided to lean into being an entrepreneur.
Patrick: So, uh, when we think about this, this build stage, um, the, the interesting part about it is, uh, you’ve gotta just be willing to push all the chips in. And, and it’s, this is the time where, uh, we’re taking risk. We’re, we’re trying new things constantly. Um, we’re seeing out what works, what doesn’t work. And there’s a lot of hustle involved in this, this part of the business, uh, because we’re, we’re trying to get this, this thing off the ground.
Patrick: And I, I like the analogy of the, the airplane. The airplane uses so much of its energy to get to cruising altitude. Um, and that’s where we’re at. We’re, we’re in this like, uh, phase of, we’re trying to get to cruising altitude. And so we are expanding a lot of energy to, uh, to [00:07:00] get the business business off the ground.
Michael: Yeah Yeah This is this is really good and I love that airplane example
Michael: So Pat what I think I hear you saying is that If you’re going to get into this game um it can be a brutal game and um but it can you can also experience a lot of fruits of your labor and you need to go all in and be willing to fail So uh I’m wondering for a new entrepreneur starting um a business um and they can’t quite seem to get it off the ground or get a profitable but they keep putting cash into the business and keep burning that cash is there a point where they should strongly consider shutting it down
Patrick: Yeah. Yeah, that’s a, that’s a great question. So again, it goes back to the first comment we made about most people shouldn’t do this, uh, because a number of business fails, and I, and I think there is some wisdom on how long am I going to be involved in this thing before I, uh, decide to, to, to reboot and do something [00:08:00] different.
Patrick: Um. So for a lot of people that, that, that answer can be, um, a number of different things. A lot of times it’s just cash, right? Like, how, how much cash do I have to burn through? Um, my suggestion is you try to do it with the least amount of cash possible. Uh, but you still need to, uh, you still need to be able to sustain yourself and eat, you know, uh, support your, your life.
Patrick: And so, uh, when we think about that, we, we, we really do look at how do we, how do we fail forward? You know, and how do we just keep iterating to. Um, keep the business moving and, and find new ways. Uh, the goal is to start generating revenue as fast as you possibly can. You know, uh, too often we see people, uh, that, that get excited about a business, try to, they’re trying to build this thing, and the reality is they need to go sell a thing, you know, sell a thing and then build it.
Patrick: And, and I’ve been guilty of that. I decided to test out a, this was over 20 years ago, [00:09:00] uh, a real estate coaching program. And I was like, I’m gonna go to this, this real estate. Um. Group that has over 200 attendees every week. And, uh, I just put out some flyers and I had about a dozen people reach out to me and raise their hand and say, Hey, I’m, I’m willing to pay you five grand to, um, be a part of this, this mentorship program.
Patrick: And I was like, this is cool. I better develop this thing. So I, I tested the market, um, I figured out how to, to sell the offering, and it, it worked and we were like, off and running. So, um, so I think that’s, that’s one thing. You know, you’ve gotta figure out how to generate revenue first. Like, that is, that is key.
Patrick: I think. Uh, Tim Ferris in the four hour work week, he, he does a really interesting, uh, case study on how to. Uh, test the market and see if there’s a, uh, an opportunity for you before you, you go all in. So that’s, that’s, uh, uh, definitely worth the read. But I, I think there’s, there’s this point in which you, you need to iterate quickly, uh, figure out how to sell and generate [00:10:00] revenue, but also be mindful of like, uh, this isn’t, this isn’t working and we need to, we need to go a different direction.
Patrick: And I think one thing that, that sort of leans into that is, uh, and I’ve said this before on the podcast, but I had a mentor of mine tell me, your business will grow at the rate in which you make decisions. And so, uh, speed over optimization I think is, uh, uh, a key piece. And, uh, you just need to, you make a decision, you move forward and if it’s not working, you make another decision and you go.
Patrick: And so I think those things are, uh, are, are really important. And, you know, this isn’t, when I think about being in the build phase, you know, the best time to do that. If I had to. Um, if I had to look at, you know, a situation and go, yes, you’re positioned well for this. You don’t have a ton of obligations, you know, um, and I’m not saying this is just for, for young people, but it’s like, if I’ve kept my lifestyle to a point where, uh, I’ve got the ability to, [00:11:00] you know, I don’t need to earn $30,000 a month to, uh, in my business right away to support my lifestyle, you know, if I’m, uh, for lack of a better term, uh, we’ve got some clients that are, are still in college, that are making a couple million dollars here.
Patrick: Uh, they’re living in their dorm room, grinding it out, and, uh, making some things happen. And, uh, uh, so you could be, you know, for lack of a better term, living in your parents’ basement and making this thing go, uh, or you’ve got some roommates in an apartment. So I think if you can keep your, your obligations low that you’re, you know, uh, now that gets harder.
Patrick: I think about myself, you know, I’ve got. A wife and three daughters. Um, you know, we’re used to a certain lifestyle, so it’s like that’s, uh, uh, for me to be like, um, if, pretend I don’t have any financial, like, assets to lean on, if, if I just decided, uh, I’m gonna quit my job and go start a business, uh, that could get really uncomfortable for my, my family really quickly if, uh, I’m like, Hey, we’re gonna go move into a two bedroom apartment out of our current house we live [00:12:00] in, uh, you know, to keep that business running.
Patrick: So I think there is something to having, um, not a ton of obligations. It just gives you a ton of flexibility when you’re, you’re getting your business off the ground. And so, um, but again, I think this all goes back to if you’re not willing to take meaningful risks, uh, you shouldn’t be in the game. So, um, yeah.
Patrick: Anything else that, uh, we should be talking about on the, the build side? I think that, uh, is, is pretty good, uh, so far, but yeah, any questions that come to mind?
Michael: Yeah No that’s that’s really good stuff Um I think just the concept of Or the idea of playing it small early um and going at 50 even like 75 you need to be 110 all in on this Um that mindset stay the same forever Right And that takes us into stage two which is protect So I think there comes a point where you’ve built a business and it’s [00:13:00] profitable you may not want to keep running the same framework You’ve been running it as you were in the build stage So I’m curious at what point should someone start to think about making this change
Patrick: Yeah, yeah. No, this is really good because the, the build stage is the most fragile stage in the entire process, right? This is, this is, this thing can, can fall apart at any time. ’cause we really don’t have a whole lot of margin. Uh, we don’t have a lot of financial margin. And the number one reason businesses go out of business is they run outta cash.
Patrick: And so when we think about when we’re building something, um, we wanna start creating this, uh, this financial stability around the business. And one temptation that’s out there that can keep us from protecting our business is if our lifestyle starts to increase as our financial margin and the business increases.
Patrick: So if I start making a dollar of profit and that turns into a dollar of [00:14:00] lifestyle spend, that, that can be really dangerous for the business. What I need to do is. You know, going back to, um, you know, living in my, my parents’ basement, um, I need to just hang out there for a minute longer, right? I need to start letting the business continue to grow and create some, some cash in the bank that is going to be able to, uh, support and protect the business.
Patrick: When some, um, some turbulence comes along, ‘ cause it, it is coming, you know, that’s the nature of business. Uh, it’s the nature of our economy. Uh, it’s why business is so hard is there’s so many factors at play that it becomes a challenge. So I think the, uh, the key thing that starts to happen when we start to migrate from, you know, the build phase to the protect phase is we start to have, um, excess financial resources and, um, we need to, uh, [00:15:00] start.
Patrick: Using those resources to support the business. And now I think a, a really important distinction is you don’t become conservative here. You, you keep your foot on the gaps. You keep this, uh, mindset of, uh, the speed at which I make decisions, my business will grow. And so, uh, effectively failing forward, you know, failing fast, like, let’s, let’s keep making these micro failures and just keep moving along.
Patrick: And, uh, but I’m doing that in the context of I’ve got this financial safety net around me in the form of, of cash on hand, which I think is, um, uh, it’s really important in the, in this whole thing. So I, I can now, uh, just support the business that is, um, is out there and it, it, it does a few things for me.
Patrick: So
Michael: I
Patrick: Any questions on any of that so far? Yeah.
Michael: I think that’s really good stuff And um you know you mentioned the financial um [00:16:00] and that safety net Um so I’m wondering like when someone keeps operating that build stage for too long what typically breaks when when um fail to enter the protect stage
Patrick: Yeah. Um, I, I think the, the thing that we’ve seen, um, and, and I’ll say we don’t have many clients that are not in the protect stage. Um, because, um, you just, if, if you’re spending everything that you’re making, uh, it’s really hard for us to help you. And, and so, um, I I, the thing we’ve seen is, and, and I’ve got some people close to me that have run businesses for, uh, maybe even decades, and they’re living at this just like, um.
Patrick: They’re, they’re, they’re growing, you know, their, their revenues are growing, but their profit isn’t growing. You know, their every dollar just keeps sort of going back into an expanded business operation and lifestyle creep. [00:17:00] And, um, it’s just, it’s just a very, very dangerous place to be. Um, because there’s, um, you know, we’re still not far enough removed from COVID to, you know, forget about it yet.
Patrick: And, but it’s one of those black swan type things. Nobody saw this event coming, and there’s gonna be new and different events that are, you know, nobody sees coming that are going to, uh, disrupt the, the way that we, we see and do business. And it’s like if you, if you don’t have any margin, uh, you’re, you’re sitting in a very, like, perilous place, um, where you know it, uh, it can all fall apart, uh, pretty quickly.
Michael: Cool So moving into like the financial piece of this specifically Um if an entrepreneur says Hey I’m profitable um you know what do you want to see in the numbers before you believe they’re actually in a position to protect
Patrick: Yeah. Um, I, I think it’s, [00:18:00] I think we should be working on creating, um, what I’m gonna call cash on hand as soon as we possibly can. And, and when I think about that, let’s, let’s just talk about some, some very general rules of thumb. This is, gets very specific for each, each client, every business. Um, but, uh, I think about it personally, right?
Patrick: And, and I’m gonna go back to some, uh, Dave Ramsey. Dave and I disagree on some things, but not this thing. Um, Dave’s a, a big champion of having that emergency fund and, and growing that, that number. And I, I think a, a healthy number for an entrepreneur is six months of lifestyle on hand. Uh, so if I’m spending.
Patrick: 10 grand a month on my, my lifestyle, uh, five grand a month on my lifestyle. Let’s use five, uh, five grand a month to just support my lifestyle. Six months of that, I’ve got 30 grand in the bank, uh, [00:19:00] just sitting there earning some money, market returns, but when it comes to inflation, it’s breakeven. Uh, and that’s okay, uh, because it’s gonna support me.
Patrick: Now when I factor in, layer in the fact that I’ve got a business involved. Now we’re going to, uh, dial that up. Uh, I think I probably need 12 months worth of expenses if I have payroll. Uh, I’m gonna start looking at number of payroll cycles. Uh, bill Gates, famous, famous, famously had, I think 12 months of payroll on Hint at Microsoft, which is an enormous number for most businesses.
Patrick: Uh, most people wouldn’t have that much liquidity. But Bill was like, look, we are, uh, I wanna be able to keep my foot on the gas and having that number in the bank allows me to just do that. And, uh, he, he carried that from a very early stage. Microsoft, I think, is still sitting on, you know, uh, billions of dollars of cash.
Patrick: So it’s, uh, um, it’s, it’s, [00:20:00] it’s worked out for them. So I think, I think that’s the, the key piece is like, how do you start creating that, that financial margin to just, uh, sit there. Now there is a point where, you know, using the, the Microsoft example, I, I feel like it’s inefficient, having too much cash on hand, you know, uh, and, and for each client that number’s gonna be different.
Patrick: And we’re okay. We’re gonna, we’re gonna give them some guidance on that, but we’re gonna let that be the client’s number. And so there’s a, there’s a low, a bottom number below that threshold is danger zone. If we get below that, um, we should, we should fix that as quickly as possible. But on the upper end, too many dollars is, is inefficient.
Patrick: I should get those dollars put to work. Uh, but I think having, having that margin, you know, defined, uh, between upper and lower limits is, um, is, is really important. And I think one, one thing it allows you, it does two things for you. A, it helps you survive in tough times. And then on the opposite side, it, it [00:21:00] creates this, uh, I dunno if resilience is the right term.
Patrick: Resilience helps you survive. It, it, it allows you to thrive when everybody else is struggling. Assets are now really cheap. I can go buy competitors, I can go buy assets that, uh, you order to discount because the rest of the economy’s falling apart. And so, uh, it just puts you in a position to take advantage of.
Patrick: I think it’s a Rothchild quote about, you know. Uh, blood in the streets, you know, that’s, that’s when I want to invest is when there’s, you know, just chaos and it looks like everything’s the worst. It’s like, now I want to go make those, uh, strategic moves. And when I’ve got the financial margin to do it makes all the difference in the world.
Michael: Yeah And we har we harp on it so much but it’s it really is it’s so important Uh the number one reason business fails they run out of money Like having that cash on hand is is so important It’s crucial And I like what you said about the the downturns When you survive these [00:22:00] downturns you position yourself to win when others can And that leads us nicely into the multiply phase here So I’m thinking we’ve we’ve got our margin of safety that we talked about and we’ve also got our excess cash on hand that we talked about And I feel like there’s a few different ways we can We can take this but why don’t we start with where you should be focusing your time Um because it can it can get easy to be distracted on all these other different flashy things you talked about the lifestyle creep Um yeah
Patrick: Yeah, yeah. No, this is good. I, I think the, when we think about the multiply stage, um, the, the goal here is to, as an entrepreneur, uh, and I think this ties back nicely to the, the last episode we did. Um, when we go from, um, you know, that hustle to, you know, architecting the, the business, um, I think it, it, it really [00:23:00] does come down to a focus.
Patrick: And, and when you start having, and we see this with clients, when I start having financial march, when things start working, I start making money. Um, I can get distracted. I can go, you know what I’ve heard about real estate? Real estate sounds amazing. I’m gonna go buy myself a 10 unit apartment building.
Patrick: And even if I have a property manager for that 10 unit apartment building, um, and by the way, 10 unit apartment building’s probably not big enough to have like, good management. So, uh, that’s a whole different discussion. But what’s going to happen is that 10 unit apartment building is going to start taking my time and energy.
Patrick: I’m going to have to invest in making decisions in, you know, uh, the financial infrastructure around that property. Like, it, it is going to distract me from the main operating business and what I’ve found, uh, both in my personal life and in. Our clients’ lives is they end up with two underperforming assets.
Patrick: [00:24:00] The business isn’t operating as well as it could, and the real estate’s not operating as well as it’s as it could, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be real estate. We’ve seen clients that, um, have, have been running a successful business and they’re like, oh, hey, you know what I’m gonna do? I’m gonna create a mastermind group over here.
Patrick: And they start doing that. And again, it’s not that it’s not profitable, like, not that they can’t make some money doing it, but it is distracting them from the main thing. And, uh, we’ve seen some clients do some pretty incredible things. Um, get rid of their mastermind group, sell off their real estate, stay focused on the main thing, and then all of a sudden the, the value of that business just, uh, just skyrockets.
Patrick: And that’s where the multiplication happens. And I wanna make a, a critical distinction here. I’m not telling you not to invest outside of your business. I think that can be a really wise thing to do. Um. I think you should invest in things that are truly passive. And, and what do I mean by that? I would say, you know, the easiest passive thing, like if I’m [00:25:00] just looking for building wealth outside of my business, a stock and bond portfolio, like, just put some money aside.
Patrick: And, you know, the, the cool thing about the, the equity markets is they’ve got a great track record. Uh, and if we think about, you know, all of our friends that run businesses and the ones that have really made it, uh, well, those are all those businesses that are, you know, in the, we’ll call it the, the Russell 3000 or s and p 500 or whatever.
Patrick: Like those are, those are, those are the friends that have made it, uh, they, they’ve run successful businesses and scaled to a point where they’re, you know, publicly traded and, uh, you know, doing really well. So, uh, we, we think those are great passive investment opportunities like parks and dollars there.
Patrick: Same thing can be true of. Some limited partnerships, things that, like you’re, you’re working with an operator that knows what they’re doing, whether that’s on real estate or oil and gas, or something along those lines. And like the cash flow’s just gonna come in and it’s not gonna take any of your time and energy to, to make that thing happen.
Patrick: [00:26:00] Uh, it was just you investing your dollars and, uh, being along for the ride. All of the work you had to do was the diligence on the front end to see if, uh, the person you’re investing with is, is worthwhile. So I think those are, those are key distinctions. I think the multiplication happens when focus is dialed in and, uh, we’re not distracted by, by shiny things.
Patrick: And, and when we start to generate wealth, uh, we start to get real dollars. It’s really easy to get distracted by by some of those, uh, um, new opportunities.
Michael: Yeah I think of I think of Newton’s first law here An object in motion tends to stay in motion And when we’re totally tunnel vision focused on our business um that gives us the best opportunity for it to compound and that we know what compound interest can do And when we start shifting our focus away to other things that I don’t wanna say don’t matter or aren’t important or um [00:27:00] Um aren’t necessarily things that don’t want to do but having that complete tunnel vision on your business is uh absolutely crucial in this stage So I’m wondering um what how are some other what are some other ways that we can filter out those shiny opportunities that uh you’re mentioning that aren’t actually aligned with the business that we’re building
Patrick: Yeah. Um, I, I. This might sound silly, but, uh, one of the things that we, we work with our clients on is, uh, creating an investment policy statement. Like, what things are we going to invest in, you know, with a sober mind when we are thinking rationally and not excited about a new opportunity, but we’re like, okay, uh, what do I want to, where do I want to allocate my capital?
Patrick: And that can be back into my business and I’m okay. I am totally okay with somebody going, I’m all in on investing my capital back in my business and keeping that thing moving forward. Um, there’s some risk with that, [00:28:00] but I think we can talk about those, those risks. Um, and then, then that investment policy statement can also say, I’m, I’m not willing to invest in this type of opportunity if it’s going to distract me from, um.
Patrick: You know, time and energy away from my business. And, and it really just allows us to, uh, stay focused on, uh, our goals. And, and, and Michael, you and I were talking about this before we, we started recording. Um, I don’t care if a client’s goals are to build their enterprise value as high as they can possibly get it, and they don’t care about their wealth outside of the business, other clients are going to be very focused on like de-risking a little bit and saying, Hey, I’m, I’m effectively invested in this micro cap stock that, uh, is my small business that has grown well and I know it really well.
Patrick: Uh, but I’m gonna, I’m gonna allocate outside of that business into, uh, other investments and I think [00:29:00] once somebody makes that decision, we should be very mindful of. Okay, cool. What are those other investments and how are they not going to distract from, uh, you operating, uh, the main, the main business?
Patrick: Well, so I think, I think that that tool can help us, um, help entrepreneurs make wise decisions when it comes to how do I, how do I multiply the value and my net worth ultimately, um, by, by staying focused on the things that, that, uh, are gonna drive that forward.
Michael: Yeah Yeah I totally agree Just because you can do something it doesn’t necessarily mean you should you should take the time to think about it make sure that it’s the right decision for you
Patrick: One of the things we’re always thinking about is how we can make this podcast as valuable and relevant to you as possible. Because the truth is, the best conversations don’t just come from us. They come from the questions you are asking every day as you’re building your business, managing risk, and trying to make the fi right financial decisions.
Patrick: [00:30:00] So something from today’s episode sparked a question, or if you’re there’s a topic you want us to go deeper on, we want to hear from you. Head over to vital strategies.com/questions. And submit whatever’s on your mind, whether it’s about tax strategy, growing your business, protecting what you’ve built, or navigating those next big decisions.
Patrick: We’re paying attention. We use your questions to shape future episodes and bring on the right experts to dive deeper into the topics that are actually impacting entrepreneurs like you. Again, that’s vital strategies.com/questions. Send us your questions and be a part of shaping the conversation One.
Michael: I think this this then brings us into stage four legacy And um this stage is a fun one It’s exciting So you move to legacy stage once your financial freedom is secured and there’s not much that can derail you anymore because your financial security is taken care of So can you walk us through what the legacy stage looks like
Patrick: Yeah. Yeah. I think this is, um, [00:31:00] this is fun and I, and I think you hit on a, a key point. Uh, we get to the legacy stage when we’ve built enough wealth that our assets can support our lifestyle, and, uh, we like to structure that where, uh, with a high degree of probability, nothing’s going to derail that. Okay.
Patrick: So I’ve either built wealth outside of my business that allows me to. Walk out of the business and say, Hey, this was fun. Throw the keys on the roof, never come back again. Don’t have to monetize my business and my financial, uh, security is taken care of. You know, I don’t have to worry about, uh, going back to work ever again.
Patrick: So that can happen by building wealth outside of the business. It can also happen by, uh, I’ll say exiting the business, you know, if we’ve been hyper-focused on driving our enterprise value, um, up as, as high as we can get it with the thought of exiting the business someday. I think that’s great. Uh, and we get to the point where we’re like, okay, [00:32:00] cool.
Patrick: I’m going to exit the business. Now, generally we see that, uh, doesn’t typically all come with all cash front. Uh, there’s usually cash upfront, maybe some earnout, possibly some rolled equity into the next opportunity. Uh, if it’s private equity company that’s, uh, that’s buying us. And so, um, with those things in mind, it’s like I now have the financial resources to support my lifestyle.
Patrick: And this puts us in a really interesting, um, position. And, uh, we, we start to see, uh, when I’m here now I get to decide what that legacy piece looks like, right? Um, it might be charitable, it might be, uh, multi-generational, you know, wealth. Like how do I, how do I build this, this wealth into a, um, something that, that impacts generations to come?
Patrick: Um, and, and so, but one of the things we start seeing here is we, we see people. Throw what I’ll call ROI out the window. Okay. And, and what do I [00:33:00] mean by that? Um, I think it goes one of two ways. One, we start, uh, we have the ability now to make some bets that have really high upside. Okay. Um, and, and, and let’s just use, let’s use some examples here to, to sort of frame this conversation.
Patrick: So the traditional, uh, retirement scenario, okay. Somebody works a job, they save some money, uh, when they retire, they’re probably in a 60% stock, 40% bond, uh, allocation. And that’s a very generic, uh, structure. And that’s been backtest, uh, to show that if you take a four or 5% withdrawal rate, you’re, you’re effectively not gonna run out of money, uh, on that, that allocation.
Patrick: Um, you can, you know, live for a really long time and your, your portfolio balance should, should sustain your life. So that’s, that’s. When we think about that though, uh, that might be a 90 percentage [00:34:00] if our, if our clients are living on, uh, $30,000 a month, uh, $360,000 a year at a 4% withdrawal rate, uh, that’s $9 million portfolio.
Patrick: Okay? Now we’ve got clients that are exiting their businesses for close to a hundred million dollars. So when we start thinking about those numbers, it’s like, okay, uh, I can take 9% of my portfolio and have it allocated, uh, 60 40 and it’s gonna take care of my life. And then I’ve got the other 91% of the portfolio that I can allocate any way I want.
Patrick: And if I’m thinking of that from a multi-generational perspective, I might be very aggressive with those, those investments because I’m okay with the volatility over time and I know that volatility is going to, um. Eventually play out in higher returns. Um, if we’re thinking stock market in general, um, I need to be careful.
Patrick: Like, I don’t wanna put all my stock in. You know, I think about companies like [00:35:00] ge uh, in early two thousands, GE was like a darling. And, uh, since then, it’s like didn’t wanna have all your eggs in that basket. Um, so, uh, but with, with that in mind, it’s like I couldn’t, I’m now in a position where I can take like bets and they’re not going to impact my financial security.
Patrick: Uh, ’cause I’m sort of carving out those dollars to make sure that I’m, I’m in, I’m in good shape. And, uh, but I think this also goes back to Michael, our discussion about investment policy statement. Like, how do I wanna allocate those dollars? Uh, some of it might be for growth, some of it might be for charity.
Patrick: Some of it might be to support, uh, family endeavors. Uh, so I, I think those things all, uh, start to come into play and start dictating how we’re going to, um, invest our dollars. Any questions on that? Because there’s another side of this that I also wanna talk about where we don’t care so much about ROI that, um, uh, comes into play.
Michael: This is really good stuff And um [00:36:00] I don’t know if I have a good answer to this So I’m I’m wondering and I’m thinking back to the build stage where we’re taking risks out of necessity where um where that’s not the case now that we’re in the the legacy phase and I’m I’m thinking that some people out there maybe even most people out there think that the more your wealth grows or the higher net worth you have the more I guess complex your situation should be just because you have that higher net worth I’m kind of wondering like if everything is structured properly um at this stage should a person’s financial life actually be getting simpler or more complex
Patrick: Yeah, that’s a really good question. And it’s, it’s a, it’s a challenge we face with our clients pretty regularly. Uh, I think it depends on how much you wanna optimize and you might be like, optimize. What do you mean? Well, from our point of view, we, we like to, we like to bring the tax bill as low as we can get it.
Patrick: And so, uh, when we start thinking about if somebody’s got a hundred [00:37:00] million dollars net worth, they’re going to be, uh, well beyond the estate tax limits. Okay. So if I’m well beyond the estate tax limits, it’s like, well now I start bringing in, uh, we’ll, we’ll call it some complex, complex trust structures.
Patrick: Um, you know, I, I could be looking at other opportunities to drive the tax bill down and then all of a sudden. What’s happened is my complexity, uh, it didn’t get smaller. It got, it got bigger and, um, you know, it started to expand. And the time and energy it takes for me to administer that complexity is, is also something, and even if I’ve got, you know, we’re, we’re a fractional family office for people that are worth, you know, a hundred million dollars plus, right?
Patrick: We’re doing a ton of work, uh, to make it very simple. But there’s still, there’s still decision making that has to come from the client on, on these things. And some people have a really high, what we’ll call planning tolerance. Like they are, they are totally [00:38:00] fine being optimized and actually enjoy the process of, um.
Patrick: Having all of these, these structures in place to accomplish their goals, uh, whether that’s minimizing tax or passing assets onto the next generation or charitable endeavors. All of those things, uh, brings a level of complexity. And so, uh, we’re also okay with the client that’s like, nah, you know, there, there’s a level where I’m okay.
Patrick: I’m okay not being completely optimized because it means I might not be optimized financially, but I’m optimized from a, a lifestyle point of view, and I’m okay with having some simplicity in my life that just allows me to, uh, you know, maybe enjoy more of my life versus be tied up in, in all of the, uh, financial details taking place.
Michael: Sure
Patrick: question.
Michael: Yeah I’d I’d love to Now going back to where we were I’d love to hear the other side of the legacy stage and maybe where things could potentially go
Patrick: Yeah. [00:39:00] Yeah. Um, and, and I don’t know, so. I think there is some, there is some opportunity to, um, and we, we’ve seen this, um, when, and it, it relates a little bit back to the, the last, um, the last phase where we’re, um, talking about, um, you know, the, um, protect and just making sure that, you know, we’ve, um, uh, we’re protecting and multiplying.
Patrick: You know, when we get in the multiplying phase, it’s focus. And one of the things we’ve seen, um, unfortunately a couple times is we’ve seen people that. Get into the legacy phase and, uh, take some outsized bets. You know, there, there’s, uh, family wealth here and they’ve, they’ve been in their lane and they’ve made a lot of money in a particular arena.
Patrick: And then they go, Hey, over there, that, that looks pretty cool. And [00:40:00] they, they have a little bit of a false confidence around, because I did it here, I, I can do it over there. And not that I, I, I find that business skills transfer, you know, um, from arena to arena. But sometimes, um, if I enter a full new, like I, I’ll just use myself as example.
Patrick: Um, we’ve, we’ve built a, a very healthy real estate portfolio. Uh, if I got into the manufacturing business, I don’t know anything about manufacturing, like nothing whatsoever. Um, that’s a very dangerous place for me to allocate a ton of capital, uh, take on a bunch of debt. And sort of maybe collateralize other assets because I don’t know what I’m doing, you know?
Patrick: Um, I think back to when I first started in real estate, made a bunch of mistakes, which was really healthy for me to, uh, figure out what not to do in the future and to allow us to grow and scale our business. And so, uh, if I push a lot of chips on in the table, uh, into a new arena that I’m not familiar with that’s outside of my core [00:41:00] competency, uh, it can, it can put the whole thing at risk.
Patrick: And we’ve seen that, um, you know, we’ve seen this, this sort of very secure financial picture get very insecure because, uh, of new ventures, a lot of debt that, uh, sort of, um, create a little bit of instability there. So, um, yeah, I think that’s, that’s something to be mindful of in, in, you know, this this legacy piece.
Patrick: Uh, you know, we, we don’t want to, we don’t wanna see pride get in the way of, uh, you know, the wealth that we’ve, we’ve built.
Michael: Yeah so What I’m hearing you saying is at this stage wealth is less less about uh maximizing insurance It’s more about building something that endures So uh we see some of these people who might be protector multiply stages and want to take a bunch of moonshots or increase lifestyle spending And [00:42:00] ultimately the overarching theme we’ve been talking about today is they just need to ultimately resist the urgent have that tunnel vision and it’s all about focus Focus on their business focus on um what’s working let compounding go to work for you um and not get distracted Do you have anything to add to that
Patrick: Yeah. No, I, I think that’s good. And I, I, you know, again, it goes back to, uh, there’s a few points you made that are really good there. Uh, I think it goes back to that we’ll call it investment policy statement. I’m okay with, um. You know, making an investment in something that maybe outside of my core competency, I’m just, I should be mindful of how much money I’m putting into that thing, you know?
Patrick: Um, and, and so if I think it has a, a ton of high, a ton of upside, and I’m like, all right, let’s, uh, let’s go, let’s go. Allocate some dollars to that. Great. Um, but it, it, I need to be mindful of, um, going back to when I had a sober mind, you know, when I wasn’t [00:43:00] super excited about this opportunity. What did I say was, uh, a, a wise percentage of my assets I should commit to things like that.
Patrick: And, uh, then I think we, you have somebody in your life that is, is willing to, um, have those conversations with you about, you know, when we start wanting to venture outside of that, how we, uh, how we maybe make some adjustments. So yeah, I think that’s, um, uh, I think that’s, that’s key. And then another thing you said that I think we, we should highlight is, um.
Patrick: I think this is true in just about any area of life. Um, slow consistent gains over a long period of time adds up to a tremendous outcome. And, and it’s easy to, to apply this to wealth, right? Like if I just keep showing up and getting, uh, I don’t know, in my business, 10% compounded returns year after year, you know, uh, 10%, [00:44:00] um, sounds like a pretty big number.
Patrick: But what we see our clients doing, like that’s not that, that’s, I would say very average, but if I can do it consistently for 20 or 30 years, uh, the net worth of that business is going to be, um, something that almost everybody else looks at and goes, man, how did you do that? That’s amazing. And it’s, uh, it just, it just means showing up every day, uh, and doing the consistent habits to get us there.
Patrick: And that’s true in, in lots of areas of our life that matter. You know, I think about my marriage, uh, think about my parenting, um. It’s, it’s all these small consistent things that, that matter. Same thing with my, my faith. It’s like just showing up every day and, uh, you know, understanding, uh, what my relationship to the Lord looks like at a deeper level like that, that, um, uh, again, just builds this, uh, this foundation that is, uh, almost impossible to shake on on all those arenas.
Patrick: And, you know, I think an easy one to see too is like fitness, right? Uh, health nutrition, [00:45:00] those things. Um, you know, if I, if I make one meal does not affect my, uh, my health, really good or bad, right? Like, I can go eat a donut or I can go eat a chicken breast, right? Um, and it’s that, that one decision’s not going to, to make a, an enormous impact in my life.
Patrick: It’s all of the tiny little decisions that start stacking up, right? If I have a donut every day, um, if I don’t move my body at all, if I am, you know, consuming all sorts of garbage cigarettes, you know, like, um, it’s all going to compound in a way that that’s negative or positive, right? If I’m, if I’m making those, those, those right decisions.
Patrick: And the same thing is true in our, our wealth building. It, um, uh, it allows us to just compound over a long period of time. So, um, good. Any other questions there? ’cause I’ve got one other thing I wanna highlight in this, uh, few other things in this, uh, piece. Yeah. [00:46:00] Um, so I think another thing that we’ve also seen with clients is when you, you enter into this, this legacy phase is, um.
Patrick: People get really, uh, in, in the, they, they might, we’ve seen this in a couple different industries. Um, first one is real estate. The other is, uh, we’ll call it farm ground. Um, where they don’t care about ROI at all. They care about building the asset, uh, the cash flowing asset base. And so, um, this is not an approach you can take when you are in, I’ll say really any of the other phases of life, okay?
Patrick: Uh, of your, of your business. You can’t do it in the, the build phase. You can’t do it in the protect phase, and you can’t do it in the multiply phase. Um, it only happens in the, the legacy side. And, and what you do is, and I’m gonna use a real estate example. My uncle is a very successful real estate investor.
Patrick: He’s got a friend [00:47:00] that owns property in this, this neighborhood, and anything that comes for sale. So, um, he’s got about a million dollars a month net cashflow. And this, this was the number 10 years ago, so it’s probably two or 3 million bucks a month now. But he is got a million dollars a month net cash flow.
Patrick: And anytime a property came for sale, he just bought it. He did not care what the price was. It was in his neighborhood. He bought it, uh, because he wanted to just add to that cash flow machine. And, uh, and, and so you can’t do that when the ROI matters, uh, when you’re taking on debt. This guy didn’t have any debt.
Patrick: He just had the cash stacking up and he was like, yep, that asset’s for sale. I’m gonna, I’m gonna buy it. And it’s gonna just continue to add to the cash flow. So, uh, we’ve also seen it, uh, and then that that machine just, he’s just creating a cashflow machine and, uh, it just keeps compounding and, uh, uh, he’s building just tremendous wealth, uh, all the way around.
Patrick: Um, those assets have appreciated. Uh, he’s [00:48:00] stacking up cash outside of the business, uh, still generating more cash. So it, uh, um, it’s impressive. And we’ve seen the same thing with, uh, we’ll call it generational farm. Uh, I live here in Iowa. Uh, we’re kind of pressed up against the river here. Uh, and so when it’s some of the best farm ground in the nation and when it comes for sale and it’s close by, uh, farmers don’t really care that they will just buy it.
Patrick: And if they’ve got. Enough assets and cashflow. Um, they know that this ground’s been in the, the family for a hundred years, it’s gonna stay for another a hundred years, and they’re just gonna keep building this, this legacy generational, multi-generational asset. And, uh, uh, you know, they, if, if you or I looked at that investment, we would go, man, that that pencil sounds like a 2% return.
Patrick: Why would anybody do that? And they don’t care. Uh, they, they are not measuring it on ROI today. They’re measuring it on long-term legacy. And, uh, I think that’s, um, [00:49:00] that’s a key piece of, of, of, you know, how the mind chef mindset starts to shift in, in this, um, this piece. And again, looking at risk, we’ve seen both ends of the spectrum on this, this legacy side we’ve seen now is the time you can go take some.
Patrick: Uh, some moonshot type bets, you know, might be that software company or buddy starting, or, uh, the other way it’s like, I don’t really care if my RO i’s zero or two or 1%, you know, I’m just acquiring this thing because it, it fits into my overall vision for where I want my, uh, my legacy to, to go.
Michael: Yeah that’s really good stuff And um through Just zooming out and looking at all four stages here Um build protect multiply and legacy the common thread here isn’t isn’t avoiding risk You’re an entrepreneur There’s always gonna be risk Um and it’s just a matter of how how magnified that risk is going to be It’s it’s more so of [00:50:00] understanding how to take it Um I think just one of the final questions I have is how someone should be thinking about their role as the entrepreneur the person making those decisions
Patrick: Yeah. Yeah. This is, this is good. Um. One thing I think I wanna, let’s, let’s highlight back at the legacy for a second that I think is, is worth talking about. Um, and then we can, we can come back to this, but, um, one thing that I think is super important that, uh, when we think multi-generational, when we think legacy, we oftentimes think about money, right?
Patrick: And, uh, but I, I think one thing we need to be mindful of is if I have, if I have two assets, one of two assets I can pass on to the next generation. And the first one is a big pile of money, and the second one is wisdom. I want to pass on the wisdom. Because if I pass on the money without the wisdom, they soon won’t have any [00:51:00] money.
Patrick: Right? They’ll, they, they’ll have neither one. But if I pass on the wisdom, they’ll figure out how to get the money. And so I think what happens here in this legacy phase is there’s a real opportunity to bring people along in the process. And, and going back to that, um, investment policy statement, you know, where do I wanna allocate my capital?
Patrick: And I think there can be a ton of value in bringing people along in this entrepreneurial journey that, that sort of have the, the skillset and the desire to, to want to be an entrepreneur. It’s not for everybody, but the people that do, um, you know, having them, uh, you can come alongside them, sort of have a, a seat at the table and, you know, you can help, um, pass on the, the wisdom from all the mistakes you’ve made, right?
Patrick: Uh, you can, you can bring some, um. Some capacity to the table from a financial point of view that makes the process a little easier for that next generation. Not that you wanna [00:52:00] make it super easy, you know, there, there’s so much value in the, the struggle in the trials, but, uh, to just create some, uh, I’ve had had a client say positive operating leverage for that next generation to like, be able to go farther faster, uh, because they don’t have the, the strain of either huge debt burdens or just lack of capital to, to make things work.
Patrick: So I think that’s, that’s awfully important. And then I think, I think a piece on the, the legacy side that is, is worth considering is, um. We’ll call it just charitable impact. How can I, how can I impact people, uh, or causes that I’m super excited about? Um, and there’s no financial return on that. And I think that’s actually a beautiful thing.
Patrick: It’s okay to, uh, um, take these dollars and invest in people and causes and things that, that matter. And, you know, we think about, uh, things like. Project rescue, which is taking people out of, um, [00:53:00] effectively sex slavery over in Europe. It’s, it’s a terrible, terrible thing. And, uh, I, I think about, yes, any dollar allocated to that is a fantastic use of resources, uh, that’s stewarding the, uh, financial resources well.
Patrick: Um, sure I could go earn another dollar in an investment, but like, think of the, the impact it’s making on somebody’s life, doing something along those lines. So I, I, I think the, you know, when we get to the legacy phase, it’s, it’s not just financial legacy. It’s like, how do I leave a legacy of. Building wealth, uh, from a multi-generational perspective.
Patrick: And I, I think we need to be mindful of what wealth is. It’s, it’s not another zero. It’s, uh, this most valuable things in life. This acronym reach, you know, relationships, experiences, advancement, you know, we’re talking about that right now. Um, with advancing, uh, wisdom and knowledge onto the next generation, uh, contribution.
Patrick: It’s better to give than receive. And then our health, uh, our spiritual, emotional, and physical [00:54:00] health, like those are, those are the most valuable things in life. And if we can, I’m all, I’m also down for somebody that wants to, you know, put a hundred million dollars, um, in the bank and grow it to a billion, totally fine because.
Patrick: Money supports that, that acronym reach really well. And if that can extend to more people that, uh, uh, can live a full life, and, uh, I think that’s, that’s amazing. If we’re doing it for another zero’s sake, uh, we found that to be, uh, pretty empty. Uh, our most successful clients are actually, you know, uh, they’ve figured out that cool money’s, money’s a lot fun, but, uh, uh, I’d rather go make an impact, uh, after I get to above a certain level.
Patrick: And so, uh, I think all of those pieces, when we think about that, that legacy side is, um, awfully, awfully important to, uh, to consider as well. And, uh, so Michael, I know I, I took us off, uh, that your, your question to go back to legacy there for [00:55:00] a question, but, uh, for a minute. But I, I think that was, uh, uh, important piece to, to cover before we, uh, before we moved on.
Patrick: So, uh, let’s, let’s reboot that, if that’s okay. Yeah.
Michael: so good And I was I was thinking about the book Die With Zero which I haven’t read but you’ve brought up to me several times and I need to I need to read it And that at the end of the
Patrick: Mm-hmm.
Michael: money like You like you mentioned it’s a tool and it we believe it should be um used to help support that reach acronym to help us live our best and uh uh fulfill our lives And I mean if we don’t live to that REACH acronym and we die with a hundred million dollars in the bank I mean you can’t take it with you So Um just a thought to add there that um to build on that Um but yeah just going back to zooming out on on the four stages here build protect multiply and legacy and kind of thinking through how risk is always gonna be involved You’re an entrepreneur [00:56:00] um that that comes with the job description so it’s more so of understanding how to take it So I was uh more so wondering on how someone should be thinking about their role as the person making those decisions
Patrick: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think the, um, the interesting thing about being an entrepreneur is it is a very, very dangerous place to be, to stop taking risks. Um, you know, and I, I think, uh, there’s a, there’s a common example of Blockbuster, blockbuster video versus Netflix, right? Um, blockbuster was like, we’re just gonna play it safe.
Patrick: We’re gonna just keep renting VHS tapes to DVDs, and, uh, it’ll all be fine. And it didn’t work out. And so I think as an entrepreneur, like you need to be, uh, constantly testing the, the boundaries in the marketplace to see where the new opportunities are. But you, you do that with the mindset of, uh, I’m gonna build a, an infrastructure around me to make sure that I’m, I’m, I’m protected.
Patrick: And, [00:57:00] uh, uh, ultimately we wanna make, um. We wanna make manageable risks. You know, we, we wanna take reasonable bets. Um, um, now I, I know fortune favors the bold. Uh, I think we just need to be, uh, bold in the right situations and make sure that, um, you know, if we’re, um, we’re, we’re making those bets, we’re not gonna do something that, uh, can derail the whole operation.
Patrick: So, uh, managing risk is a, is an important part of the, the whole process. But I, I think through the entire thing, um, we’re never stopping. Um, the, the, the, the, we’re never getting out of a situation where we’re not taking some risks. It’s, uh, uh, I think it’s, it’s almost essential for us to, to continue to, to grow and develop.
Michael: Yeah Awesome So if someone’s listened to this and [00:58:00] this is this conversation’s landing with them um and they want to do some sort of assessment on
Patrick: on themselves.
Michael: um
Patrick: Yeah,
Michael: you want to do you wanna walk the listeners through our risk assessment
Patrick: Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think this is good. So, um, if you’re listening to the car, uh, come back and listen to this when you, you get back to, uh, push pause and just, uh, wait till you get to a spot. But, um, just got five questions and I, I think it’s worthwhile to, um, one to five.
Patrick: Um, you can, you can rate these, the first one’s actually, not a one to five, but, um, um, so the first question is, I understand what stage I’m in right now. You know, are you in the, are you in the build phase? Are you in the protect phase? Are you multiplying or are you legacy? Like, where are you at? Um, I think it’s good to know.
Patrick: And then the second question, one to five, my risk taking aligns with that stage. So. Um, you know, [00:59:00] one, it doesn’t align at all. Five, it absolutely aligns. Um, and then number three, I have financial structure to support my risk. Um, ’cause this again goes back to, uh, our previous conversations about, uh, built to last.
Patrick: Like, I, I need to have this infrastructure around me. And, uh, the financial structure is critical to support the risk profile. Um, it allows you to take the risks. Uh, so one to five, I have the financial structure to support my risk. Uh, then the fourth question, uh, I avoid distractions that pull me from my core opportunity.
Patrick: So one to five. Um, and that’s, that’s a hard one for us entrepreneurs. It’s so easy to get distracted by, by new opportunities, uh, that not only take our time, but our, our focus away from, um, the, the. Um, the thing that’s driving our, our wealth and, um, the opportunity we have in front of us. Number five, my [01:00:00] capital allocation reflects long-term thinking.
Patrick: Um, again, this goes back to our, our conversation, Michael, about those slow consistent growth profile stacked up, uh, time and time again, uh, just makes a tremendous impact. So, uh, just making sure that our, our capital is allocated to, to reflect that, that long-term thinking. So, one to five, how are you doing there?
Patrick: So I would say if you hesitated on more than a couple of those, uh, your risk might be misaligned with your stage, then that’s something to, uh, to, to keep in mind. Um, you know, these are things we love helping our clients with. We love these conversations. We love seeing people grow and the impact that they can have.
Patrick: So, um, if any of this resonated with you, um. We’d, we’d love to continue this conversation. You can go to vital wealth.com. Uh, you can schedule some time with us to, to talk more about it. Uh, you can also sign up for our newsletter, vital wealth.com/resources. Uh, just, we’re gonna be, um, putting out, you’ll get these episodes every, every week.
Patrick: We’ve [01:01:00] also got a newsletter that’s gonna come out. Uh, it’s just gonna continue, uh, this thinking and, and sharing these thoughts on, um, how not to just build wealth and pay less tax, but, but ultimately, uh, live and and optimize life. So, uh, we just find that financial clarity just gives you the, the ability to take the right risks.
Patrick: Um, and without it, even good decisions become, become somewhat dangerous. So, um, yeah. Um, this has been a lot of fun. Michael, I I do appreciate, uh, um, you know, this, this conversation and our, our time together today. Anything else to add before we wrap up?
Michael: No this has been awesome And um I believe we have our miniseries finale coming up Um that’ll be a good one I won’t spoil any of that but I’m excited to get to that This conversation today has been great and um yeah it’s been a pleasure pat
Patrick: Yeah. Thanks so much for joining me here today and, uh, working through these things. It’s a lot of fun.
Michael: Love it
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